Here's a simple thought:

Assuming that those who claim they have literally heard God speak had a genuine experience wouldn't it mean that their life has been altered forever? They cannot live how they like anymore because they have an undeniably tangible experience that proves to them personally that God is real.

I see faith as the use of one's free will. One chooses to have faith in something but after such an experience faith is no longer needed. You have but ONE choice and that is to serve the God who showed himself to you UNMISTAKEABLY.

Free will is gone.

Believing in a god, if one exists, isn't a big deal to me. We believe in lots of things - does the evidence of these things violate our 'free will'*? Unless you mean we'd be compelled to do what this god demands. In regards to the Christian god it seems to me that, at least in principle, it's not a given that knowing the Christian god exists necessitates servitude, as Satan clearly has no problem disobeying God. Or maybe it's one rule for the angels and another for humans. Might as well speculate on the number of bathrooms the Death Star has.

*I don't believe in free will anyway (or gods for that matter!)

Why don't you think we have free will?

I think this question is problematic because it ultimately cancels out faith. You're left with the knowledge of heaven and hell... I doubt anyone after this would live for themselves per se.

Beliefs are commonly use as identifiers, I an christian, I am Atheist etc. There is also a factor that groups congregate around a given feature, we are the same so we can be friends. I have found that in any group most people will identify with a commonality, as opposed to having a philosophical concept of what that thing is. Which to my mind why virtually all societies have group commonalities.
Given this an individual may come under stress if they do no feel part of the group and as such could undergo a psychological incident, so that they become aligned with the group they wish to feel more part of. In that case the individuals behaviour after the event will be to fit in with the common values of the group, not to exhibit behaviours which expel it out from the other side. Thus it will tend to do as much charitable work as the other members of the group it belongs to.
There are exceptions to this, like the legend of St Francis, where he initially exhibited a set of behaviours that were right for an aristocrat of his time to have, debauchery, drinking, gambling an fighting, but which were also too pronounced, after his conversion we see that exact same scenario, that what he was doing was correct as far as the values went, but exhibited in a far stronger way than the common norms of his group.
Fuck me I must want to fit in with the po-faced atheist bastards who are all about a cleaver intellectual approach and nothing about feelings and joy, sod this for a game of soldiers.

(July 13, 2012 at 3:00 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Why don't you think we have free will?

If there is a god, then he's a complete jackass for giving us free will in the first place, just to punish 99% of the population ever to exist for using it.

If there isn't, then free will is no different to the passage of time.

(July 13, 2012 at 3:00 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Why don't you think we have free will?

If people weren't products of their experiences and biology we wouldn't be able predict anything about them. It's no accident that certain experiences in life, certain brain afflictions, etc, repeatedly lead to similar circumstances and similar choices. Indeed, it's what makes the social sciences -- while not perfect -- possible. If people really possessed this nebulous 'free will', I doubt the world of human affairs would be predictable at all. Also, you can't choose an option you're unaware of, which, to me at least, would seem to be pretty damning against the notion of free will. Some people, like Daniel Dennett, use the term differently but I think it's a little sly of anyone to call that 'free will'. I want to be careful here because I'm not that familiar with him, but Dennett seems to be trying to make determinism more palatable (to those who fear that an absence of free will would just make us automatons) by saying that we also have free will, which he defines as the ability to be 'avoiders'. This is all from memory though, so if I'm misrepresenting Dennett, I apologise. And this isn't a criticism of his conclusions, which, from what I've seen, I agree with.

(July 13, 2012 at 3:00 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I think this question is problematic because it ultimately cancels out faith. You're left with the knowledge of heaven and hell... I doubt anyone after this would live for themselves per se.

Oh yeah, I agree. If you have evidence for a belief it would make faith superfluous. Personally, I'd try and help Satan sack Heaven. I don't want to just sit in Heaven reviewing the scoreboard, I want to see something big go down! Let's see what we can break! Let's show them creationists what entropy really is!

Quote: Free will is gone.

Madness has taken its place.

(July 13, 2012 at 1:09 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Here's a simple thought:

Assuming that those who claim they have literally heard God speak had a genuine experience wouldn't it mean that their life has been altered forever? They cannot live how they like anymore because they have an undeniably tangible experience that proves to them personally that God is real.

I see faith as the use of one's free will. One chooses to have faith in something but after such an experience faith is no longer needed. You have but ONE choice and that is to serve the God who showed himself to you UNMISTAKEABLY.

Free will is gone.

I agree, choosing Christ through faith is the only true free will we have, we can decide later to leave that faith through free will, outside of this God is in control. One may have a choice of his/her own or not, no one will ever know if they made that choice or not it will always seem that way. Jonah had to be pushed along by God, he heard from God and still resisted God's will, just because one hears from God will one always respond to Him.

I personally wouldn't follow this God if it were the God of Christianity, Islam or many others. If it's an asshole God, without a hell of a good reason for the shit that it allows to happen, I'd tell it to go fuck itself. I told Satan to go fuck himself when I was younger and really believed he spoke to me and was tormenting me. It was actually the result of sleep deprivation, repetitive nightmares and a very active imagination. Still, I told that motherfucker where to go. I can't imagine I'd react any differently to God.

Incidentally, there was a point during another thread today when the following thought occurred to me: If God did exist and it fessed up to being a complete asshole and admitted to making a lot of mistakes but wanted to change, I would probably forgive him/her/it. The reason this thought occurred to me was, I consider myself capable of forgiving the worst examples of humanity, so why not God? Of course, in keeping with tradition it would be conditional forgiveness; I'd have to appoint a committee to decide on the Propitiation owed to humanity.

(July 13, 2012 at 8:20 pm)Gambit Wrote: I'd have to appoint a committee to decide on the Propitiation owed to humanity.

No, No, No! I'd rather be a slave of Jove, than live in a universe run by a committee.