Well, you've seen it at work. How impressed are you?

(September 16, 2012 at 12:42 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: It is worth noting that while I generally disagree with A T on political matters it does seem like he has a firm grasp on this point. One thing that shouldn't be discounted is the fact that after the war we spent a lot of time and effort and resources into helping Japan rebuild itself. Japan still somehow managed to surrender without having to have most of their war criminals put on trial and their emperor remained in power, albeit loosely. Such was the Japanese refusal to submit that even after two atomic bombings they were adamant that these two conditions be accepted by the people holding the gun to their head. Respectfully, Tib, I have to therefore disagree that this was an act of terrorism; lots of civilians died in those attacks, yes, but consider that up to that point over the last eight years about 45,000,000 other civilians had died. What was it, 250,000 civilians died as a result of the bombings, after radiation poisoning was accounted for? Maybe 1,000,000 when you count leukemia as a later effect. But they were not targeted for being civilian population centers; they were industrial centers, primarily munitions [Nagasaki] and components and infantry weapons [Hiroshima].

I often hear "America is a terrorist nation" and the association used is always the atomic bombings. Why does nobody say Japan is a terrorist nation because of the Rape of Nanking or the occupation of China, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, and a dozen other nations in which they basically committed outright genocide and mass rape? You hear tons about the holocaust and the atomic bombings. Nothing about what the Japanese did. Their atrocities might as well be considered afterthoughts even though they were arguably the most brutal, unapologetic, and merciless butchers of WWII. I think that is why the crimes of what Japan had done keep popping up in this thread; it's because of the act of comparison. People are trying to say we are the lesser of two evils.

I guess I agree with that point, too. Ultimately the question boils down to "would it have been worse to cause ten times the casualties over a longer period of time, or have a far smaller die all at once, albeit in a particularly excruciating manner?" I say the latter. It's numbers to us now, and it was numbers back then, too. Kill a hundred thousand to save five million. Not invading Japan was never an option. The Soviets broke their treaty of neutrality and in all honesty would likely have thrown their all into grinding the Japanese into a thin red paste. Stalin was a merciless sunuvabitch and Japan would've been a great base of operations for the Soviets to have a foothold in the Pacific with.

Now, Rhythm: You will get no argument from me about the Spitfire and the Typhoon; they WERE made of wood, after all. Fragile? Bet your ass. Let's face it; American aviation always has been superior. Maybe not necessarily in overall "top level" performance, but in keeping everything balanced. Personally my favorite planes were the Lightning, the Thunderbolt, and the Mustang...along with the mythical, would-have-been-fucking-amazing Ascender [XP-55; look it up, it's a wild-looking plane, and if the original engine production had gone through, it would've been a beast]. Part of the problem, too, was Japanese arrogance during the war. As you pointed out, Yamamoto himself basically said "This is a really bad idea." Well actually his words were "We've awoken a sleeping giant" but still, point remains. He was one of the few knew what was about to happen.

Thing was, at this point in time, Japan was pretty much at the height of religious "empowerment." The Lotus Sutra Imperial Way Buddhism and the Shinto belief systems both basically espoused the Emperor as God. Not a mortal, not a man, but actually god on earth and of earth. It became a fanatical system of belief, in fact, enforced by the Kempeitai [Japanese secret police], to the point that almost every Japanese civilian and soldier were indoctrinated into this belief system. It wasn't like they had many dissidents, to be honest; this system of belief had been in place for quite some time before WWII even began and was very rigorously practiced. In fact it was buddhist monks and priests who recruited the most Kamikaze [or "Divine Wind"] pilots. Oh yes. Buddhism has a history with suicide bombing, in fact with the most infamous example of suicide bombing in history! Who knew, eh? Funny thing, Buddhism apparently was completely and totally 100% in-tune with the Imperial Way teachings...right down to the veneration of the Emperor and the Kamikaze pilots, the ritualistic disembowelings, all of it. Just remember that the next time someone tells you Buddhists abhor violence and have never been responsible for it; it's a balls-out lie.

But yes. The Japanese were, right to the loss of Iwo Jima, convinced of their own divine right to rule. Oh I don't just mean the divine right of the Emperor to rule Japan, no no, I mean they believed he had the divine right to rule the world and that they were the instruments that would bring this about. This sort of cock-sure arrogance cost them dearly throughout the war, of course. Believing god will grant you superiority and that you can be reckless as you'd like because you'll either succeed or reach divinity alongside your deity is the best, surest way of getting your ass torn to shreds in a firefight with men who fight with more caution and discipline. The Japanese often took a lot of risks and threw away their best in suicidal missions. Another problem was their lack of respect; under-estimate a foe and he will take you by surprise, and the Japanese were told that the "white savages" were dull, brutish, uncouth, uneducated dimwits who had no culture or honor and would fight as such.

Thing was, the Americans of the day had just come off of the Great Depression; they were hardy, resilient men and women who had just endured a decade of extreme poverty and had just started being fed three square meals a day; they were proud, with the rough-and-tumble endurance that comes with surviving a life in poverty, and they were savvy in that way that only life-threatening necessity can ever instill. In other words underestimating the Americans was probably the biggest mistake the Japanese ever made.

Worse still was their planning of the bombing of Pearl Harbor. You see, they DID cripple our battleships and dreadnoughts. There's just one problem; the meat of the fleet, the REAL prize had already left; the aircraft carriers were gone on exercises.

The Ascender would have been bad ass! What's your thoughts on America's , 'Hellcat' fighter and Germany's Messerschmitt jet intercepters? The Messerchmitt's wreaked havoc on our bombers over Germany. Too bad for Germany, they were too few and too late to have really made a difference toward the end of the war, in addition to having already lost most of their experienced pilots. If I'm not mistaken, I think Hitler originally wanted to use them as bombers? ......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F6F_Hellcat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_163

The Me-262 was a hell of a piece of engineering but sadly it was TOO much of a hell of a piece of engineering. They were constantly down for maintenance which meant that while they were effective once in the air, it was a pain in the ass getting them into the air to become effective. Ultimately, the Me-262's is a legacy as to Germany's position in the war at that time; great technology but no know-how on how to use it properly. After all, P-51d Mustang pilots shot a number of them down...but then, the Mustang was a fighter that slapped every other fighter onto its knees and demand to be called "mistress." They didn't fly; they danced in the air. Then you had the P-47 Thunderbolt...the big galumphing elephant in the sky, but it was as hard to take down as an elephant, too. There's a reason the impossible-to-kill A-10 was named after them.

The Hellcat, meanwhile? Once again a terrific example of American aviation design being superior to Japanese aviation. The heavier weight and more powerful engine basically had it outrunning everything and the Zeroes, as usual, couldn't bring enough firepower to bear to really take them down. It was basically a more agile version of the P-47, I think, with a relatively similar design. Ultimately its kill record speaks for itself loud and clear. Most kills of any other allied craft in WWII. They were powerhouses...and honestly I think a modern aircraft needs to be named after them. The Lightning and Thunderbolt have legacy fighters, why not the Hellcat??

EDIT: Oh shit you were talking about the 163 not the 262. XD I actually don't know much about the 163, I admit...though if you want a bad-ass German jet craft...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229

Look no further. The Ho 229. Batwing jet fighter-bomber. Never saw combat but according to all specifications if it had, it would've been impossible to match.

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(September 16, 2012 at 2:16 pm)Shell B Wrote: Well, you've seen it at work. How impressed are you?

About as impressed as I would be if I were presented with an avocado and told it was an apple.

[The disappointment becomes even more obvious when I remember to inform everyone that I dislike apples and I love avocados.]

(September 16, 2012 at 2:50 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: The Me-262 was a hell of a piece of engineering but sadly it was TOO much of a hell of a piece of engineering. They were constantly down for maintenance which meant that while they were effective once in the air, it was a pain in the ass getting them into the air to become effective. Ultimately, the Me-262's is a legacy as to Germany's position in the war at that time; great technology but no know-how on how to use it properly. After all, P-51d Mustang pilots shot a number of them down...but then, the Mustang was a fighter that slapped every other fighter onto its knees and demand to be called "mistress." They didn't fly; they danced in the air. Then you had the P-47 Thunderbolt...the big galumphing elephant in the sky, but it was as hard to take down as an elephant, too. There's a reason the impossible-to-kill A-10 was named after them.

The Hellcat, meanwhile? Once again a terrific example of American aviation design being superior to Japanese aviation. The heavier weight and more powerful engine basically had it outrunning everything and the Zeroes, as usual, couldn't bring enough firepower to bear to really take them down. It was basically a more agile version of the P-47, I think, with a relatively similar design. Ultimately its kill record speaks for itself loud and clear. Most kills of any other allied craft in WWII. They were powerhouses...and honestly I think a modern aircraft needs to be named after them. The Lightning and Thunderbolt have legacy fighters, why not the Hellcat??

EDIT: Oh shit you were talking about the 163 not the 262. XD I actually don't know much about the 163, I admit...though if you want a bad-ass German jet craft...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229

Look no further. The Ho 229. Batwing jet fighter-bomber. Never saw combat but according to all specifications if it had, it would've been impossible to match.

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(September 16, 2012 at 2:16 pm)Shell B Wrote: Well, you've seen it at work. How impressed are you?

About as impressed as I would be if I were presented with an avocado and told it was an apple.

[The disappointment becomes even more obvious when I remember to inform everyone that I dislike apples and I love avocados.]

"EDIT: Oh shit you were talking about the 163 not the 262. XD I actually don't know much about the 163, I admit...though if you want a bad-ass German jet craft..."
The Me 163 was actually a rocket powered fighter. I believe the Me 163 was also the one that German pilots would fly into a group of oncoming bombers, then collide with them in a way that would shear off the bombers' wings. The hope was that after the German pilot collided with the bomber he would then eject from his plane and parachute to safety.

The batwing was way ahead of its time and is the forerunner of today's stealth fighters and bombers...like you said, it never saw combat and it would have been impossible to match.....I definitely miss History channel's 'Dog Fights'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_163

Quote:I definitely miss History channel's 'Dog Fights'.

Replaced by Ice Road Truckers, Pawn Stars, and Axe Men. The History Channel needs more history.

(September 16, 2012 at 6:01 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:I definitely miss History channel's 'Dog Fights'.

Replaced by Ice Road Truckers, Pawn Stars, and Axe Men....

...which is why I stopped watching History Channel.

Kit is important, but is always the pilots that make the difference.
Do you guys know about Faith, Hope and Charity the 3 biplanes which defended Malta and flew slower than the Italian bombers they were intercepting?

(September 16, 2012 at 6:01 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:I definitely miss History channel's 'Dog Fights'.

Replaced by Ice Road Truckers, Pawn Stars, and Axe Men. The History Channel needs more history.

Lisa from ice road truckers is hotter than anything from dog fights.

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(September 16, 2012 at 8:28 pm)jonb Wrote:
Kit is important, but is always the pilots that make the difference.
Do you guys know about Faith, Hope and Charity the 3 biplanes which defended Malta and flew slower than the Italian bombers they were intercepting?

It's unseemly to get puffed up about beating the Italians.

d-damn Theist, is this really you??

You look so angry man? Why? I thought you had jesus in your heart? I've seen pictures of POWs who looked happier than you.

I WAS ABOUT TO SAY! XD A_T really does look constantly pissed off. XD

Also; I completely agree, the history channel needs to be more about history and less about pop culture and reality TV. I fucking despise reality TV. I hate it with a passion. WHY is it encroaching onto every fucking channel?!

On track: So THAT was the 163?? I remember seeing a documentary about bombers in WWII and there is this one where it shows one of those planes diving right into and then through a B-25 Mitchell. Didn't even go for the wing, the thing just cut the bomber clear in half. The jet kept dropping, went straight down, no ejection; the pilot was probably killed by the impact, even though the plane was largely intact. Fuck, you had to be crazy to basically plow your plane into another and actually hope to survive to eject. Crazy or brainwashed. Or stupid. Or all of the above. Most likely all of the above. These WERE Nazis, after all.

I DID actually forget to mention the Ho-229 as being the forerunner to modern stealth aircraft. It wasn't remarkably stealthy but for its time it was cutting edge...and in all likelihood inspired modern stealth designs. Maybe not designs like the F-117 but certainly designs like the F-22 and F-35 JSF...and DEFINITELY it was a heavy influence on the design of the B-2 Spirit.

And it is worth noting that in a dogfight, in biplanes no less, shooting down enemy bombers capable of moving faster than you? Yeahhh, that actually is some crazy levels of skill, because you basically had to line up the target head-on and take it down, because if you didn't, by the time you turned and started opening fire the bomber was already getting out of effective range of your guns. And hitting a head-on target couldn't be very easy to do in those days.