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Why is 'god' a possibility?
#11
RE: Why is 'god' a possibility?
I don't think it's so much that god is a possibility, but that epistemologically speaking, it is impossible to rule out with 100% certainty. I label myself an "agnostic atheist" not because I see god's existence as a legitimate, probable scenario, but more because I can't say for certain that a god does not exist.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#12
RE: Why is 'god' a possibility?
(September 17, 2012 at 10:44 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Why? Why is it a possible answer to life? As a former Christian I used to believe this concept of 'god' was everything, but now that I have some intellectual freedom I don't really see why atheists spend so much time pondering about it.

What you have to understand about me is that I'm very black and white most of the time. This is because of my engineering background which has taught me to be very 'square' in thinking. So when this mentality is applied to religion this is what comes out:

Religion X makes claim Y which is backed up by irrefutable point Z. Because of Z it then follows (according to said religion) that Y is the truth. In between Z and Y there are many smaller arguments and bits of evidence (Z1, Z2, Z3....Zn) that eventually lead one to accept Y logically (in theory). So in my mind this is all laid out as a chain of thoughts or proofs that logically make sense and one is able to accept Y:

Z--Z1--Z2--Z3--....--Y

Now, to make more sense of it all, let's use good ol' Christianity as an example. In this case, the irrefutable point would be Jesus (Z). All the smaller arguments etc. would be things like eyewitnesses that left behind their memoirs. Put all of this together and then we can confidently believe in Y i.e. the Christian god. The problem is, though, that if we bring in the reasons for why Jesus (i.e. Z) is flawed, then your entire string of smaller arguments fall all around you and Y can no longer be put forth as being true (because Z1 is based on something erroneous which then means Z2 is as well, and so on and so forth). The chain is based on a baseless assertion and therefore in my mind the Christian god cannot be a possibility, or the answer to the cosmos.

I don't know if you're still with me at this stage, but basically we can apply this to any religion that has ever existed and come out with the result that no evidence exists for their god(s). Well then(!), let's apply this reasoning to the very idea of GOD. Can't it be said that that will also come crashing down around us? Therefore, why even begin to think that there could be some sort of being out there waiting for us to die? Through this exercise, can't we reasonably justify (and conclude) that god(s) are a figment of the imagination?

How has the topic escalated to such a degree that a man-made construct takes up so much of our intellectual time? Why begin to think it's a possibility if all the evidence shows otherwise, because the matter of the fact is that the idea has been proposed by religion which does not have the evidence to support its claim?

What's left is a concept that has no bearing on reality except only through the imagination of man. Man created god, so how is it valid to ever think GOD is a possible answer?

We think so much about it because God and Christianity are the bedrock of our civilization. We may have wised up now but we can't deny that our civilization was shaped by the Christian religion. Whether it's the arts, literature, music, dance, sculpture, paintings, architecture, or anything at all, Christianity played a huge role in our development.
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#13
RE: Why is 'god' a possibility?
(September 17, 2012 at 12:20 pm)genkaus Wrote:
(September 17, 2012 at 12:05 pm)IATIA Wrote: Basically one has but two choices, theism or nihilism.
I must be a special case then. I managed to make a third choice..

Do you believe in an afterlife? if so, by what power?
(September 17, 2012 at 12:20 pm)genkaus Wrote:
(September 17, 2012 at 12:05 pm)IATIA Wrote: Obviously the benefit of theism is the promise of a rewarding afterlife whereas nihilism offers nothing but the now.
You need to brush up on your philosophy. Nihilism offers nothing - not even now.

We obviously have the 'now'. It is just a question of what is it?
(September 17, 2012 at 12:20 pm)genkaus Wrote:
(September 17, 2012 at 12:05 pm)IATIA Wrote: As nihilism is scary to most (even a lot of atheists),
It's not scary to me. Just silly.

I believe that then answers my query as to whether or not you believe in an afterlife.

(September 17, 2012 at 6:03 pm)greneknight Wrote: We may have wised up now but we can't deny that our civilization was shaped by the Christian religion. Whether it's the arts, literature, music, dance, sculpture, paintings, architecture, or anything at all, Christianity played a huge role in our development.

I most definitely disagree with that statement as it stands. Most of christianity was plagiarized from the pagans, so in effect, it was the pagans that shaped our civilizations.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson

God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders

Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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#14
RE: Why is 'god' a possibility?
(September 17, 2012 at 3:47 pm)Faith No More Wrote: I don't think it's so much that god is a possibility, but that epistemologically speaking, it is impossible to rule out with 100% certainty. I label myself an "agnostic atheist" not because I see god's existence as a legitimate, probable scenario, but more because I can't say for certain that a god does not exist.

I guess that's what I'm getting at with the OP. Why can't you say for certain GOD does not exist? You know where the concept came from, you know why the concept doesn't fly, so how is it rational to think these primitive people were actually onto something?

Is it rational for me to be agnostic towards the existence of Dr. Who?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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#15
RE: Why is 'god' a possibility?
(September 17, 2012 at 7:56 pm)IATIA Wrote: Do you believe in an afterlife? if so, by what power?


I don't.

(September 17, 2012 at 7:56 pm)IATIA Wrote: We obviously have the 'now'. It is just a question of what is it?


Actually, in the context of nihilism, that we "obviously" have now would be an illusion.

(September 17, 2012 at 10:41 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: I guess that's what I'm getting at with the OP. Why can't you say for certain GOD does not exist? You know where the concept came from, you know why the concept doesn't fly, so how is it rational to think these primitive people were actually onto something?

Is it rational for me to be agnostic towards the existence of Dr. Who?

Actually, yes, within the context of modern science, it is rational for you to be agnostic towards the existence of Dr Who.

That's one of the things about modern atheism that I find particularly annoying - the consistent denial of certainty.
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#16
RE: Why is 'god' a possibility?
genkaus Wrote:Actually, yes, within the context of modern science, it is rational for you to be agnostic towards the existence of Dr Who.

That's one of the things about modern atheism that I find particularly annoying - the consistent denial of certainty.

Please elaborate. I'm not sure what you mean.

I also don't understand how modern science says it would be rational for me to be agnostic towards Dr. Who. I know 100% that it's a fabrication that is shown on tv for entertainment. Not one thing about it has a bearing on reality because it was dreamed up by men, just like the concepts found in religion and eventually their god(s).
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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#17
RE: Why is 'god' a possibility?
(September 18, 2012 at 9:20 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Please elaborate. I'm not sure what you mean.

I also don't understand how modern science says it would be rational for me to be agnostic towards Dr. Who. I know 100% that it's a fabrication that is shown on tv for entertainment. Not one thing about it has a bearing on reality because it was dreamed up by men, just like the concepts found in religion and eventually their god(s).

Can you be absolutely sure that what happens on Dr Who is not, in fact, the real reality? Can you state with 100% certainty that there is absolutely no possibility that science and logic does in fact work as shown on Dr Who and all the events shown actually do happen, but wool has been pulled over the eyes of humanity by a powerful telepathic alien race, while another alien race is trying to tell us the truth by subliminally influencing the minds of the writers?

Or perhaps, there is in fact an alternate universe where things do work as shown on Dr Who and the events shown do happen there and someone there has built a machine to telepathically broadcast those events to other universes. And the few people in this world who receive these broadcasts become the writers of the show (or really devoted fans).

The point is, something like 100% absolute certainty doesn't exist in modern science, because, if it did, science would stop being self-correcting. While this facet is necessary for scientific progress, it still requires us to allow for the existence of any and every arbitrary idea - no matter how far out there it may be.
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#18
RE: Why is 'god' a possibility?
Hmm, I see what you're saying. Would you agree then that the categories we place ourselves in with relation to a deity are for the most part an arbitrary detail about us?

I think it's equally arbitrary for me to state my belief in the formation of Mercury. Say there's also 3 main categories for it: A, B and C. The only difference between this and our stance on GOD is that the subject of GOD gets touched upon infinitely more on a day to day basis. At the end of the day though we could come up with hundreds of arbitrary categories where people could define their belief towards that thing.

GOD seems like an arbitrary concept to me now. I can see why science needs to allow things to possibly exist, but in practical terms 'do you believe in GOD' is just as arbitrary as 'do you believe Mercury formed by B'.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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#19
RE: Why is 'god' a possibility?
(September 18, 2012 at 2:02 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Hmm, I see what you're saying. Would you agree then that the categories we place ourselves in with relation to a deity are for the most part an arbitrary detail about us?

I think it's equally arbitrary for me to state my belief in the formation of Mercury. Say there's also 3 main categories for it: A, B and C. The only difference between this and our stance on GOD is that the subject of GOD gets touched upon infinitely more on a day to day basis. At the end of the day though we could come up with hundreds of arbitrary categories where people could define their belief towards that thing.

GOD seems like an arbitrary concept to me now. I can see why science needs to allow things to possibly exist, but in practical terms 'do you believe in GOD' is just as arbitrary as 'do you believe Mercury formed by B'.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. There are two ways in which I could interpret these statements.

My first impression is that you're trying to say that the idea of god should be a non-issue. I agree. In fact, I think the only reason it is an issue at all is because some people have made it into such a big issue. For example, if the concept of god simply stopped at "created the universe" - it'd hardly come up outside academic circles. How many people do you see walking down the streets discussing the big-bang theory? It's because people insist on tying it to all the other aspects of their lives - and not just theirs but others' lives as well - that it it gets so much more attention than it deserves on it's own merit. They use this concept to try and tell you all sorts of things like what you should work for, how much should you earn, what should you do with your money, who should you love and even how should you love. Trust me, if people believed that the explanation B for the formation of Mercury implied that you should spend your time bent at the waist everytime it is in the sky, that topic would become oft-discussed as well.

On the other hand, even with the intrusive potential, the concept isn't given that much attention. Much more than it deserves, sure, but not all that much. For example, the majority of my friends and extended family wouldn't even know that I am an atheist. Why? Because the topic simply hasn't come up. We have much better things to talk about. It's only with those whom you talk to a lot that the subject is likely to come up - once the more relevant ones are done.

My second impression was that you are attributing arbitrariness to the position taken on the topic, rather than the topic itself. That is, of the three explanations posited for formation of mercury, the one chosen by a person is arbitrary and picking others would be just as valid. And similarly, picking an option out of theism and atheism is arbitrary as well. I don't think that's what you mean, because you seem smarter than that. But if you do, then no, that is not the case because, even though the practice of science requires you to provide a margin of error, choosing the position that is 99% certain over the one that is 1% certain isn't arbitrary at all.
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#20
RE: Why is 'god' a possibility?
Quote:I don't really see why atheists spend so much time pondering about it.


I don't buy your premise. I never ponder anything concerning any of the silly gods which man has created to amuse/terrify itself.

About the only time I waste on the subject is when I come here, or one of the other archaeology/atheism boards I frequent and some loser starts trotting out excuses why his/her particular variant of Holy Horseshit is "real" and the others are not.

Then I confess, I will gladly join the fray because I have the time to do so.

Speaking of which....WTF is Padraic? He hasn't been around for a while.
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