(November 6, 2008 at 11:55 am)chatpilot Wrote: My opinion is that faith/God is an easy answer for those things we dont yet understand.So I would say that yes,faith is a great cop out.Example:Where did we come from?How did the universe and the planets come to be?
Answer:God did it
Now wasn't that easy?

Funny, that is how the faithful often see science. The easy answer with no responsibilities or accountability. Of course, God provided those answers a long time before science did - come to think of it, science has no answer regarding how we got here. Just God. That makes it the only possible answer doesn't it.

(November 6, 2008 at 12:14 pm)Daystar Wrote: Funny, that is how the faithful often see science.

Well if that is the case which I doubt, then they have no good insight in how the scientic method works.

(November 6, 2008 at 12:14 pm)Daystar Wrote: The easy answer with no responsibilities or accountability.

Of course scientists are accountable.

(November 6, 2008 at 12:14 pm)Daystar Wrote: Of course, God provided those answers a long time before science did - come to think of it, science has no answer regarding how we got here. Just God. That makes it the only possible answer doesn't it.

So what exactly did god do, and what modus operandi did god use?

Evidence please Daystar.

(November 6, 2008 at 12:14 pm)Daystar Wrote: come to think of it, science has no answer regarding how we got here. Just God. That makes it the only possible answer doesn't it.

What???
So far your posts have seemed somewhat intelligent and well thought through, please tell me you are *not* serious. You think that because science cannot answer something, then the religious option becomes any more viable? Even if you disproved every single scientific theory, it does *nothing* for religion. You have to prove your points on their own merit.
Disproving evolution or abiogenesis no more proves your God than it does the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

(November 6, 2008 at 6:12 pm)Jason Jarred Wrote: What???
So far your posts have seemed somewhat intelligent and well thought through, please tell me you are *not* serious. You think that because science cannot answer something, then the religious option becomes any more viable? Even if you disproved every single scientific theory, it does *nothing* for religion. You have to prove your points on their own merit.
Disproving evolution or abiogenesis no more proves your God than it does the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Well I, uh ... say ... that FSM is pretty big with you guys, isn't it.

I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to get the posters here to teach me where there might be a conflict with science and the Bible and I have has surprisingly little information. I am glad that what I say about the Bible is being taken as seriously as an atheist could be asked to take it but I need more information. Evidence as EvF would say.

Here is what my uneducated view of science would prescribe.

No one can claim they know how we got here. Not evolutionist nor creationist. No one was there and no one can prove it either way. There are only two versions that I am aware of other than creation. Only two scientific possibilities. Both from the movie Expelled. Before you criticise those by simply dismissing them, tell me how we got here.

Science says that either aliens put us here or life started by riding on the backs of crystals. Educate me.

When I asked the science minded atheists here where the Bible and science disagree I was given simply "the origin of species" as evidence and the minor disagreement of when birds and reptiles appeared.

I don't know much about the origin of species and the case of the birds and reptiles science can't really prove.

That is the way I see it.

(November 6, 2008 at 7:59 pm)Daystar Wrote:

(November 6, 2008 at 6:12 pm)Jason Jarred Wrote: What???
So far your posts have seemed somewhat intelligent and well thought through, please tell me you are *not* serious. You think that because science cannot answer something, then the religious option becomes any more viable? Even if you disproved every single scientific theory, it does *nothing* for religion. You have to prove your points on their own merit.
Disproving evolution or abiogenesis no more proves your God than it does the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Well I, uh ... say ... that FSM is pretty big with you guys, isn't it.

I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to get the posters here to teach me where there might be a conflict with science and the Bible and I have has surprisingly little information. I am glad that what I say about the Bible is being taken as seriously as an atheist could be asked to take it but I need more information. Evidence as EvF would say.

Here is what my uneducated view of science would prescribe.

No one can claim they know how we got here. Not evolutionist nor creationist. No one was there and no one can prove it either way. There are only two versions that I am aware of other than creation. Only two scientific possibilities. Both from the movie Expelled. Before you criticise those by simply dismissing them, tell me how we got here.

Science says that either aliens put us here or life started by riding on the backs of crystals. Educate me.

When I asked the science minded atheists here where the Bible and science disagree I was given simply "the origin of species" as evidence and the minor disagreement of when birds and reptiles appeared.

I don't know much about the origin of species and the case of the birds and reptiles science can't really prove.

That is the way I see it.

My good friend Daystar, we recently agreed ( to my chagrin ) over our being here......now then I agree again with you that nobody knows how we are here.
Let me offer a theory, it isn't mine, I'm not so clever, nor do I claim it the answer.
What if what there is, has always been?
No creator, no big bang.
To my mind, that is equal to either option.

Quote:Daystar - Funny, that is how the faithful often see science.

Leo - Well if that is the case which I doubt, then they have no good insight in how the scientic method works.

Science. Why is it that we lump evolution in with science? Evolution is what we are talking about, not science. Why lump all of science in there with evolution. The faithful often think that people who don't subscribe to their position are in some way beneath them.

In the mind of much of the faithful the atheist position releases one from moral responsibility much the same as the atheist that I have known tend to think the fathful have abandoned reason. This is the sort of smug observations made by establishing some principled position that is strictly adhered to.

I think it is all silly because if nothing else the Christian should be made aware of their own sin. Look at the Bible. King David was beloved of God - the name means as much, my own name. Yet I would like to think that I would never do the stuff David did. On the other hand if I am going to compare what the average atheist knows about the Bible they so sharply criticize, they know very little.

I think the sort of political / social / emotional / traditional position creates misinformation.

Quote:Daystar - The easy answer with no responsibilities or accountability.

Leo - Of course scientists are accountable.

Well, that may be, but how many scientists are here.

Quote:Daystar - Of course, God provided those answers a long time before science did - come to think of it, science has no answer regarding how we got here. Just God. That makes it the only possible answer doesn't it.

Leo - So what exactly did god do, and what modus operandi did god use?

Jehovah God created. The name itself means "He causes to become." Science speculates how that might have been done but where is the real issue with the beliefs of either one of us set aside?

I like to imagine what would happen if that were possible.

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(November 6, 2008 at 8:15 pm)bozo Wrote: My good friend Daystar, we recently agreed ( to my chagrin ) over our being here......now then I agree again with you that nobody knows how we are here.
Let me offer a theory, it isn't mine, I'm not so clever, nor do I claim it the answer.
What if what there is, has always been?
No creator, no big bang.
To my mind, that is equal to either option.

Twice we agreed?! Well, if we agree on the inability to be able to really know and prove our theories yours makes as much sense as any. Actually more than evolution, as far as I am concerned because Evolution begs the question of what came first. Where I would say the creator they draw a blank. You can't have a big bang with nothing.

The most difficult aspect of my belief, at least for me is where God came from.

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(November 6, 2008 at 1:37 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Evidence please Daystar.

You want me to provide evidence that what you think is a fairy tale exists - but I can't use scripture? Perhaps it would be easier for you to provide some evidence for Origin of species. But you can't use science.

Daystar Wrote:Why is it that we lump evolution in with science? Evolution is what we are talking about, not science.

Erm...I'm just going out on a whim here, but maybe because EVOLUTION IS SCIENCE!

(November 6, 2008 at 8:23 pm)Daystar Wrote: In the mind of much of the faithful the atheist position releases one from moral responsibility much the same as the atheist that I have known tend to think the fathful have abandoned reason.

Daystar, the faithful *have* abandoned reason. Reason is the ability to make judgements based on facts, and facts are ascertained by way of proof. There is insufficient proof for the exisistence of a God, therefore it is *not* a fact, and not reasonable to believe.

To believe in a God necessitates that you abandon reason.

(November 6, 2008 at 8:50 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Erm...I'm just going out on a whim here, but maybe because EVOLUTION IS SCIENCE!

Arguably, but isn't it interesting that when archaeology, astronomy, biology, chemistry, genetics, geology, paleontology, physics and technology are called what they are and Evolution has to be - almost constantly reaffirmed as Science!

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(November 6, 2008 at 9:05 pm)Jason Jarred Wrote:

(November 6, 2008 at 8:23 pm)Daystar Wrote: In the mind of much of the faithful the atheist position releases one from moral responsibility much the same as the atheist that I have known tend to think the fathful have abandoned reason.

Daystar, the faithful *have* abandoned reason. Reason is the ability to make judgements based on facts, and facts are ascertained by way of proof. There is insufficient proof for the exisistence of a God, therefore it is *not* a fact, and not reasonable to believe.

To believe in a God necessitates that you abandon reason.

So what you are saying is that even though the Bible said that the world was spherical 1000 years before science did, and that the Bible - Jehovah God's word - was far more ahead of science on many scientific issues we are without reason until science does catch up with it because you have just dismissed it because you can't explain what God is?