I have noticed that sometimes, criticism towards Islam is considered hate speech. In the US, Democrats often do this, so they can seem morally superior to the Republicans for being hateful after 9/11. The fact is that sometimes the Democrats are completely ignorant of Islam and its adherents.

Islamic nations are in pitiful shape for a reason: the religion is still much like that of Christianity during the Medieval Era. Islam, unlike Christianity, hasn't been "tamed" very much, in the way that Christianity has after the Enlightenment. For instance, many Persians are still angry at the Arabs for pushing Islam into their beautiful nation, because of the barbaric morals that are STILL being imposed onto ethnic Persians (who are not of Semitic descent, and did not naturally practice Islam) within Iran. Islam is an expansionist, barbaric religion that seeks to invade and conquer. Now, if Muslims coming into the West would like to keep the religion to themselves and adopt Western customs, we wouldn't have to worry. However, many Muslims coming into Europe have no desire to adopt the customs of Europeans, and sometimes, they refuse to learn the language. We should not be inviting Islam into the West. What do we gain from doing so?

I am not asking for some purge of the Muslims within the West, but at the same time, I do not like the religion. I don't see why we have to tolerate it. I don't see why we cannot openly criticize it. In some circles, especially in multicultural universities, criticizing Islam is now a taboo; doing so is edgier than being anti-Christian. Why? Just so we can prove how "tolerant" we are? How foolish!

Calling people names like "Islamophobes" is just childish, so long as all said people are doing is criticizing Islam and merely speaking out against it spreading its barbarianism into the West. Personally, that won't work on me; I will always be against Christianity and Islam gaining any more power within the West. Christianity and Islam have no power unless they are forced upon a population of people. Neither encourage autonomy and the freedom to explore other horizons. The best thing that can happen is that the two of them lose ground in Western countries.

With that being said, I encourage you guys to take more time and criticize Islam. I know Christianity is the dominating force in the West, but tolerating Islam is already becoming fashionable in liberal circles. I say we take care of that little problem as soon as possible, before it gets worse. Enough atheists slander Christianity, but how many take the time to vilify Islam?

I have talked to people on the "other side of the fence", and atheists are not perceived as being anti-Islam--only anti-Christian. Something needs to be done about that.

Approaching it from "culture" perspective, is not going to convince anyone. Simply calling it barbaric won't win hearts over. Converts are still converting, and it's growing fast, and 4 women convert per 1 man.

Islam is a complete way of life, it has principles giving direction in all sorts of issues, and whether it's delusional or not, the human nature is inclined to be religious. It looks for a purpose and believes in one early on in life.

While you see the Islamic culture as barbaric, it's the perception of beauty in this culture that makes it so strong to others.

To be honest, I think the west is afraid of the high honour of Islam and it's high expectations on humans.

It makes people feel uneasy. The Muslims have a high standard of what it means to be a good human... and the west is not living to the standard.

It hits their pride. They are afraid of it, because it exposes them in many senses. They are uneasy because of that.

(October 27, 2012 at 8:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: To be honest, I think the west is afraid of the high honour of Islam and it's high expectations on humans.

It makes people feel uneasy. The Muslims have a high standard of what it means to be a good human... and the west is not living to the standard.

If it is so great, then why is the West ahead of Muslim countries in terms of civility, technology, education, women's rights, and etc.?

(October 27, 2012 at 8:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Approaching it from "culture" perspective, is not going to convince anyone. Simply calling it barbaric won't win hearts over.

I was not "simply calling it barbaric". I actually typed out a few paragraphs; go take a look.

(October 27, 2012 at 8:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Converts are still converting, and it's growing fast, and 4 women convert per 1 man.

So?

(October 27, 2012 at 8:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: 4 women convert per 1 man.

Must not have read the terms and conditions.

(October 27, 2012 at 8:49 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Islam is a complete way of life, it has principles giving direction in all sorts of issues, and whether it's delusional or not, the human nature is inclined to be religious. It looks for a purpose and believes in one early on in life.

While you see the Islamic culture as barbaric, it's the perception of beauty in this culture that makes it so strong to others.

To be honest, I think the west is afraid of the high honour of Islam and it's high expectations on humans.

It makes people feel uneasy. The Muslims have a high standard of what it means to be a good human... and the west is not living to the standard.

It hits their pride. They are afraid of it, because it exposes them in many senses. They are uneasy because of that.

The Islam you are describing is not the one I am familiar with. The taliban enforced sharia law on the people and thay hated it. Women lose many rights under Islamic rule, such as the right to an education. Why any woman would want to convert to Islam is beyond me. Keep in mind that the taliban is composed of religious extremeists. So, when people follow the tenants of Islam to the letter and bad things happen, what does that say about Islam? Now, it isn't any different for Christianity (well, maybe a little, but Christianity is still bad) it's just that it isn't legal to stone unruly children, etc. and it is no longer acceptable to think such a thing is justified. I think Muslims in the United States aren't like the fundamentalists in the middle east, but the extremists are still very real, and it is Islam that motivates their actions.

(October 27, 2012 at 8:54 pm)Spectrum Wrote: If it is so great, then why is the West ahead of Muslim countries in terms of civility, technology, education, women's rights, and etc.?

Well, look at Iran. They have all these sanctions on them, and they are advancing in technology, etc... Yes they were late. But there is all sorts of reasons, that are unrelated to the Islamic culture.

In fact, there was a time, when Islamic culture lead the world in education.

As for women rights, again, aside from clothing, women can do everything a man can do, in Islam. She can work, she can get an education, etc...

If you want to talk about the right of women showing their bodies, is the right of women to walk naked in the streets? Even the west has limits on the clothing, but Islamic standard of "decency" is more "extreme"/"higher".

Quote:So?

You know after sep 11, so many converted, because they went and investigated Islam.

Personally, I am going to try to disprove Islam from purely non-moral arguments.

I have found contradictions. I have found logical errors.

I want to respectfully disprove Islam.

But when you act all Islamic phobic, it won't convince Muslims but make them feel inclined to hold on to their religion.

And not only that, but you are bringing Islam in the face of people, and people then go read Quran, and Quran is very emotionally persuasive to people.

(October 27, 2012 at 9:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well, look at Iran. They have all these sanctions on them, and they are advancing in technology, etc... Yes they were late. But there is all sorts of reasons, that are unrelated to the Islamic culture.

In fact, there was a time, when Islamic culture lead the world in education.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-15191.html <----relevant video

(October 27, 2012 at 9:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: As for women rights, again, aside from clothing, women can do everything a man can do, in Islam. She can work, she can get an education, etc...

If you want to talk about the right of women showing their bodies, is the right of women to walk naked in the streets? Even the west has limits on the clothing, but Islamic standard of "decency" is more "extreme"/"higher".

http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/ente...-burqa.htm

(October 27, 2012 at 9:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

Quote:So?

You know after sep 11, so many converted, because they went and investigated Islam.

Personally, I am going to try to disprove Islam from purely non-moral arguments.

I have found contradictions. I have found logical errors.

I want to respectfully disprove Islam.

But when you act all Islamic phobic, it won't convince Muslims but make them feel inclined to hold on to their religion.

And not only that, but you are bringing Islam in the face of people, and people then go read Quran, and Quran is very emotionally persuasive to people.

I don't think logically disproving Islam is going to do it; they won't listen. It is better to curb the violent and oppressive tendancies of certain Islamic groups than try to debunk it. If the violence stops, people won't have 'Islamophobia' anymore.

(October 27, 2012 at 9:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Yes they were late. But there is all sorts of reasons, that are unrelated to the Islamic culture.

So being conquered centuries ago by Arabs who forced foreign concepts onto the Persians had nothing to do with it?
I don't buy that. And yes, they are late.... very late, and still very far behind. How is there even a competition between the two??

(October 27, 2012 at 9:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If you want to talk about the right of women showing their bodies, is the right of women to walk naked in the streets? Even the west has limits on the clothing, but Islamic standard of "decency" is more "extreme"/"higher".

Ever heard of honor killing? >__>

(October 27, 2012 at 9:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You know after sep 11, so many converted, because they went and investigated Islam.

You're right. A few people converting to Islam automatically proves it is a great religion. Therefore, I should welcome it with open arms. Meanwhile, I should ignore all other evidence that defames Islam.

(October 27, 2012 at 9:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: But when you act all Islamic phobic

You mean, "Islamophobic", not "Islamic phobic". And please explain how the hell I am doing that. Unless I was drunk and don't remember, I could have sworn I never, at any point, called any ethnic group inferior, nor did I say that just because someone is of a certain background, they are inferior. All I did was point out the obvious: Islamic nations are barbaric in comparison to Western nations, in the current day. Ah yes, no alcohol on my desk--only Diet Coke.

It sounds to me like you are just trying to take a cheapshot and jump atop the moral high ground, so you do not have to take the time to properly debate me.

(October 27, 2012 at 9:15 pm)Darkstar Wrote: It is better to curb the violent and oppressive tendancies of certain Islamic groups than try to debunk it. If the violence stops, people won't have 'Islamophobia' anymore.

Indeed. However, Westerners cannot do that for them. They must go through progressive revolutions and changes, just as we have. Until then, we cannot ignore what Islam has done, and what it is still doing.

People don't have Islamophobia because of violence. They love seeing the Taliban type Islam, because it makes them feel superior, and shows how secularism works and religion doesn't. Of course, Iran is the most hated country by the west, because it has a working interpretation of Islam. Working in that people respect it. Women work. Women get educated. And women feel valued there.

There Islam was a mechanism by which they overthrew dictatorship. It's also put's a different political structure, in which rather then rich people playing the most influential role in politics, it's the the scholars that do, and they are suppose to guide the people according to the principles of Quran and hadiths which is taken as the wisdom. In other words, it's more a kin to the philosopher king style while the west is more of the popular guys the rich support.

In the west, money plays highest influence in who rules, in Iran, Islamic scholars (Shiite Islam clergy) plays the highest role of who rules.

Because the Jews in the west have high influence, the political policy towards the enemies of Israel, is what it is. It has nothing to do with principles people sincerely believe in.

(October 27, 2012 at 9:25 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: People don't have Islamophobia because of violence. They love seeing the Taliban type Islam, because it makes them feel superior, and shows how secularism works and religion doesn't. Of course, Iran is the most hated country by the west, because it has a working interpretation of Islam. Working in that people respect it. Women work. Women get educated. And women feel valued there.

There Islam was a mechanism by which they overthrew dictatorship. It's also put's a different political structure, in which rather then rich people playing the most influential role in politics, it's the the scholars that do, and they are suppose to guide the people according to the principles of Quran and hadiths which is taken as the wisdom. In other words, it's more a kin to the philosopher king style while the west is more of the popular guys the rich support.

In the west, money plays highest influence in who rules, in Iran, Islamic scholars (Shiite Islam clergy) plays the highest role of who rules.

Because the Jews in the west have high influence, the political policy towards the enemies of Israel, is what it is. It has nothing to do with principles people sincerely believe in.

So you disagree with me that atheists shouldn't oppose Islam?

Tell me, why are you agnostic instead of an atheist?

Spectrum, honestly the west has a superiority complex. They always think their culture is superior. Their way of life is superior. This has been for a very long time, for the imperial days till now.

The poor natives had their way of life, but, nope culture must be superior.

That is fine, you can believe that. By why are trying to shove it down other cultures throat? I don't see Chinese all afraid of Islamic culture and trying to show Chinese culture is superior. The Hindus seem to enjoy their culture without constant need to feel superior to other cultures or shove it down their throat.

Calling others barbaric won't work and just makes you look like a bigot.

Honor killings have no basis in either Quran or Sunna.

The only way in Islam that you can get killed for sex is if someone get's somehow caught by four people, seeing the act of sex. And those four people must trustworthy and known to be, what are the chances that trustworthy honorable people are going to see a man and a woman having sex, who they know are not married?