(November 2, 2012 at 4:40 pm)John V Wrote:

(November 2, 2012 at 4:27 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Do we really need to point out that correlation does not equal causation?

Correlation doesn't prove causation, but it's usually a good place to start looking.

Yep. So where's the connection?

I note that you're the one who implied a causal relationship between atheism and economic decline.

(November 2, 2012 at 4:40 pm)John V Wrote:

(November 2, 2012 at 4:27 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: Do we really need to point out that correlation does not equal causation?

Correlation doesn't prove causation, but it's usually a good place to start looking.

But if you don't keep researching, this is intellectually dishonest.

(November 2, 2012 at 4:24 pm)John V Wrote: Drich beat me to it. Atheists have been crowing lately that Christianity is on the decline in America. Now you note that America is in economic/power decline. 2+2=4 anybody?

Maybe you two shmucks can explain why china is cleaning our clock?

Oh, probably not. Go pray or something equally fucking worthless.

(November 2, 2012 at 4:51 pm)John V Wrote:

(November 2, 2012 at 4:43 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: John V explain to me how the decline of christianity furthers the decline of a nations economy.



Germany - 40-50% of the population atheist - strongest economy in europe since the 90s.
and the number of atheists is growing.

I'm waiting to hear how Christianity hurts us scientifically and economically. Heck, most Christians accept all science except for origins, and papers on evolution ain't exactly driving GDP.

So do you usualy outflank questions which you cant answere by asking other questions, in a desperate attempt to keep a highground?

Answere my question!!!

origins? evolution!? do you have any idea how importent biology and therefor evolution is for science and therefor for the economy?
biology is more than simply watching animals have sex!
ever heared of bionics or genetics!? do you know how importent scientific knowlege within such subjects is importent for a economic development?

Antibiotics, medical science in general, technical engeneering, - let`s just throw it all away and go back to living in the fucking stone age!

you people also reject physics! i am not an expert at that field, and actualy dont have much knowlege on it.
but as far as i know modern physics is based on the fact that the universe is billions of years old.
the same physics which developed the laptop you are using.

(November 2, 2012 at 1:56 pm)Doubting_Thomas Wrote: How big a factor do you think the continuing Christian backwardness is on the pace at which America is losing the scientific edge as it goes into relative economic/power decline?

1.18

(November 2, 2012 at 4:51 pm)John V Wrote:

(November 2, 2012 at 4:43 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote: John V explain to me how the decline of christianity furthers the decline of a nations economy.



Germany - 40-50% of the population atheist - strongest economy in europe since the 90s.
and the number of atheists is growing.

I'm waiting to hear how Christianity hurts us scientifically and economically. Heck, most Christians accept all science except for origins, and papers on evolution ain't exactly driving GDP.

Interesting you would say that when you're the one who implied the reverse.



Shift the burden of proof much?

(November 2, 2012 at 4:55 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(November 2, 2012 at 4:24 pm)John V Wrote: Drich beat me to it. Atheists have been crowing lately that Christianity is on the decline in America. Now you note that America is in economic/power decline. 2+2=4 anybody?

Maybe you two shmucks can explain why china is cleaning our clock?

Oh, probably not. Go pray or something equally fucking worthless.

Is the BBC considered a legit source? Here is what they say about 'Faith' in China.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749

Less than 10%. You have to figure in a country that big that there would be that many total assholes who'd fall for your fucking bullshit.

(November 2, 2012 at 7:27 pm)Drich Wrote:

(November 2, 2012 at 4:55 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Maybe you two shmucks can explain why china is cleaning our clock?

Oh, probably not. Go pray or something equally fucking worthless.

Is the BBC considered a legit source? Here is what they say about 'Faith' in China.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749

Apples and Oranges.

None of those Christians are in a position of power. Quite the opposite. They are close to slave labor, with religion being something they can be offered to help the drudgery (the article even says this is why religion is booming in China).

In America, the religious right has come into a lot of political power, the government is no longer really secular, as it was in the golden eras of the past. Extreme religion, when in power as it is in America, holds back scientific research (stem cells, cloning), education (creationism, evolution, physics), human rights (GLBT marriage, womens reproductive rights, even racial equality (don't forget the church's stance on segregation in the 60's)), etc, etc, etc. .

Certainly this isn't always the case. It is a pretty recent development, and specific to certain sects of Christianity. Catholics, by and large, accept most science and have for hundreds of years, indeed we must admit they produced most of western scientists up until the 40's or 50's. But Cathiolics are not (generally speaking) extremists.
There are other problems with the Catholic church, but it isn't generally holding back progress scientifically, although they aren't helping the human rights issues.

But a growing population of evangelicals, baptists, and other extremists Christian sects gaining political and social/economic power has had a recent and noticeable negative effect on the progress of America.

Since nothing exists in a vacuum, I think it is accurate to say atheists play their part in this in their own way. The more the extremists Christians feel threatened by the growing irreligious population, the more extreme they will become, and the harder they will fight for power and control. The slow erosion of separation of church and state is the root cause many of American's current issues. The reason the extremists are fighting to destroy that basic separation (which is really one of the greatest things our country did at it's inception) is because they fear growing irreligiosity, and think they best way to stamp it out is to create a theocracy, and force those who disagree with them out of "their " country. You see this in so many of the GOP's recent candidates, who constantly talk about Christian America, how people should be forced to take tests to qualify as Americans, certain groups or peoples being not TRULY American, atheists being neither "true" citizens nor patriots, etc. They are scared of science, of growing irreligiosity (which they often blame on science), and their answer is to stamp both out, even if it sets us back 100 years.

It's isn't religion in and of itself that is taking the US back decades, it is extremist religion in control of parts of our government that is doing the damage. Denying that they are indeed holding us back on the issues I've listed is just burying your head in the sand and saying "Lalala".

I don't think any of the above analysis is right. Firstly; Yes China is doing well, but are they developing anything new or are they just copying technology developed by others? Mark you they are doing that well, but so far I have seen no strong evidence that culturally we are seeing any ability to invent.
I would say this lack of inventiveness, is not despite them having a well run centrally run state but because of it.
I would say to be inventive, you have to have a creative feel, and a creative person tends to have all sorts of rough edges, and tends to rub their superiors up the wrong way. In China these people are suppressed.
I think one of the reasons why Europe went through a technological revolution was that these inventive minds could if they upset the powers that be move or smuggle their work out to others, because Europe was composed of so many little states.
America became so powerful because of a lack of central control.
The reason for me is that the west has moved to becoming more centrally controlling, and economic power is held by a smaller tighter groups, which means the ability for individuals to go out and try out their own thing is diminished, and even if they come up with new and novel solutions the ability to get these to the market becomes more and more difficult.