(October 19, 2009 at 9:54 am)rjh4 Wrote: Actually, I was asking about the golden rule as set forth in the quote from the BHA website, not as Jesus put it (to be honest, I clearly did not read carefully enough because I initially thought they were the same but after reading your post and rereading the quote, I see they are not). As presented in that quote, it would seem to match what you said. Do you agree?

I guess I would agree with it. I certainly agree with Adrian about morality having a basis in evolution. I also wanted to clarify that Jesus's Golden rule is not the same as other expressions of this rule, which many Christians are not aware of. (Also that Jesus didn't come up with it)

So beginning with the idea that the appropriate standard of conduct is:

"Treat others as they (the others) would wish to be treated."

Do you ever have any trouble following this even though this is the standard you think should be followed?

I know that no matter how you word the golden rule, i.e. as above or as Jesus put it, and that no matter how much I think with my mind that it is the appropriate standard of conduct, sometimes I have a hard time practicing the golden rule. Now a Christian world view provides a basis for this.

I would like to know how an atheistic world view provides for this (whether for you yourself if you have the same problem as me, or for me as I am telling you I have this problem). If the golden rule has its basis in evolution and chemical reactions in the brain, etc., it seems like it would then be easy to follow because always following it would seem to be the natural result of the evolution and chemical reactions. From an atheistic point of view, why is it so hard to practice the golden rule all the time?

(October 19, 2009 at 10:54 am)rjh4 Wrote: If the golden rule has its basis in evolution and chemical reactions in the brain, etc., it seems like it would then be easy to follow because always following it would seem to be the natural result of the evolution and chemical reactions. From an atheistic point of view, why is it so hard to practice the golden rule all the time?

Because life is not that simple? Just because it has an evolutionary basis doesn't mean we would be "programmed" to behave this way and therefore, should find it easier to follow. Social conventions are conventions that we have developed for the good of society, that doesn't necessarily mean everyone will follow them. It really is a complex subject, with no easy answer. One explanation, I would say, is Natural Selection promotes the propagation of the species by that species ability to survive and then the ability to procreate. So, social needs are constructed because in some species they promote the ability to survive and ability to procreate. However, this doesn't negate individual need and how evolution influences us that way. Evolution is not perfect in the sense that it doesn't produce a perfect species or being, but one that is successful in surviving and procreating for the circumstances of it's life.

Pack mentality might help explain it. Human brains aren't wired to treat everyone equally. Just like a pack of monkeys might care for each other and protect each other, but attack a monkey of another pack.

Related: Dunbar's number

Also keep in mind that brains don't work in black and white like you suggest. For example, our brains tell us when something hurts by creating pain and pain memories to discourage. That doesn't mean we won't pull out a splinter even though it hurts more than leaving it in, or that we won't walk on a broken ankle to get help.

Things like morality and pain work as an influence, not as a rule.

Edit:

(October 19, 2009 at 1:23 pm)rjh4 Wrote:

(October 19, 2009 at 12:05 pm)Meatball Wrote: Also keep in might that brains don't work in black and white like you suggest.

I hope I did not suggest this. If I did, it was not meant. I was just trying to find out an atheistic position on the matter.

You didn't, I just read into that way. It's like asking why it's easy to forget phone numbers. I mean, our brains are built to remember things, right?

(October 19, 2009 at 12:05 pm)Meatball Wrote: Also keep in might that brains don't work in black and white like you suggest.

I hope I did not suggest this. If I did, it was not meant. I was just trying to find out an atheistic position on the matter.

Quote:"Non-believers" do, of course, have many beliefs, though not religious ones. For example, they typically hold that moral feelings are social in origin, based on treating others as they would wish to be treated (the 'golden rule' which antedates all the major world religions).

Yes I agree that you get what you deserve, in a manner of speaking. If you treat people well, those who appreciate it will do the same. Not everyone is decent in this world but those who are will recognize a goodwill gesture.

Bottom line: I do good because I want to, not because I do not want to go to hell.

(October 20, 2009 at 10:24 am)Retorth Wrote: Bottom line: I do good because I want to, not because I do not want to go to hell.

Me, too.

(October 20, 2009 at 10:55 am)rjh4 Wrote:

(October 20, 2009 at 10:24 am)Retorth Wrote: Bottom line: I do good because I want to, not because I do not want to go to hell.

Me, too.

Me too

Doing good doesn't get you a get out of hell free card

(October 19, 2009 at 8:33 am)rjh4 Wrote: The following is a quote from the BHA website that Darwinian cited in the thread "Agressive Secularism?"

Quote:"Non-believers" do, of course, have many beliefs, though not religious ones. For example, they typically hold that moral feelings are social in origin, based on treating others as they would wish to be treated (the 'golden rule' which antedates all the major world religions).

As an atheist, do you agree with this quote? Do you strive to follow the golden rule?

Yes I agree. You get what you deserve. And if you are putting on airs you don't deserve that respect.

If you treat others with respect it makes life worth living for.

And I am good because I want to be, not because of some imaginary sky daddy will send me to hell.

Considering that we are all different... how could I treat us all the same? I give everyone and everything a basic respect... I accept that they are not me, and I don't break or damage them/it because of this basic respect. Beyond that, I treat others as I feel they should be treated. If I feel that one person is worthy of me bowing down before them and worshiping them: I shall treat them so. If I feel that one mosquito is the scum of the earth that deserves swift and relatively painless death for the sake of most of us: I will smite the mosquito.

It isn't about treating others how I want to be treated... for I do not wish to treat my king as I wish myself treated. Instead, it is in treating others fairly that is the real golden rule. By not following this rule, one is scum of some sort or another. Do not do to others as you would have them do to you... instead: Do to others as deserves to be done to them.