? I'm speaking hypothetically in order to show the absurdity of a supernatural God whatever he is. Any supernatural God is highly improbable simply because he's supernatural. Miracles almost certainly don't exist, and a supernatural God is the biggest 'miracle' of all. Because miracles are supernatural changes or creations in natural law, and they are all very improbable.
And what is more 'miraculous', more complex and improbable than a God that can create these highly improbable things called miracles?
I was saying that IF there is a God atheists are just as likely to go to heaven and theists to hell than vice-versa. So Pascal's Wager completely falls on its face.

Ok,

(November 9, 2008 at 2:57 pm)CoxRox Wrote: I see. I was just surprised you were surmising what this imaginary god would be like.

Only *this* imaginary god?

Lots happened in this thread since I last posted.

As for meeting us in an afterlife if there is one, surely we'll all be damned to hell (or oblivion depending on your religion) so remember to say "goodbye"!

Hi Allan, I don't believe in a literal 'hell' so I'll include you in my round of drinks.

(November 10, 2008 at 9:05 am)CoxRox Wrote: Hi Allan, I don't believe in a literal 'hell' so I'll include you in my round of drinks.

In that case, if we are meeting for drinks in the afterlife you may as well be an atheist!

Ha ha. And yes, we were not just talking about one imaginary God. At least I wasn't. I was talking about different but similar Gods that did slightly different things and showing that on every case Pascal's Wager falls on its face.

I was just a little amused that you talking about 'any' imaginery gods and what they may or may not be like. The main point I think was that we shouldn't hedge our bets, and think that Pascal's wonky Wager is an acceptable way of exercising faith- if you see what I mean.

Hey if I didn't talk about imaginary God's how would I have ever known that they were imaginary in the first place? In this case I'm talking about it so you and other theists see my point of view.
My point is it doesn't matter what a supernatural God is like, he's still imaginary.
Supernatural=imaginary. Almost certainly.
So I already understand this, but I was just trying to explain it.
I was trying to explain to you CR that Pascal's Wager is not 'somewhat weak', IMO it is totally weak, because no matter what imaginary God you conceive of, there's still no reason to be afraid or hell and longing for heaven whatever the God is like. Because IF heaven and hell exists you're just as likely (as far as we know) to go to Heaven OR hell whatever you are like as a person. Whatever you're beliefs are and whether you're good, bad a saint or totally evil, or whatever.
There's no reason to be afraid of the afterlife or craving for it.
And most of all, IF God exists and he wants genuine belief (and IF he exists there's no reason to believe he does)...Belief is not a matter of policy anyway so if you don't believe him you can't help it and if you believe in him you are just lucky you do! Because you can't choose genuine (not faked) belief out of sheer will power.
So when you said, CR, that Pascal's Wager 'sucks somewhat' I simply tried to explain and go into detail about why it is about as weak as an argument as you can possibly get. Its a trick, whether it was designed to be or not...
...Because it only works if you fall for it!

Ok, I take your point.

Hi Catherine,

On youtube a scientist calling himself Potholer54 has made very nice video on Abiogenesis and the formation of DNA if you are still interested.

[youtube]v8nYTJf62sE[/youtube]

And for good measure the brilliant CDK007:

[youtube]U6QYDdgP9eg[/youtube]