(February 10, 2013 at 1:28 am)Minimalist Wrote: Here's an article, right on point, but it exists only in abstract. I tried Google Scholar but it is not there either. The abstract, however, points up many of the main points.

http://www.academia.edu/1716285/_Digging..._I_Ashdod_

Quote:"Digging for Dagon: A Reassessment of the Archaeological Evidence for a Cult of Philistine Dagon in Iron I Ashdod"
by Jeff Emanuel
Scholars have generally accepted 1 Sam 4:1b–7:1’s portrayal of Philistine cult in the Iron Age I as being centered on the god Dagon and his temple at Ashdod, despite three major limitations: the likely late date of the Deuteronomistic history’s authorship; the dubious veracity of its historical accounts; and the Bible’s status as the only Bronze or Iron Age text which indisputably refers to the god Dagon in a Canaanite geographical context. In the light of these limitations, as well as of the late 20th century excavations at the Philistine cities of Ashdod, Tel Qasîle, and Tel Miqne/Ekron, and the ongoing excavations at Ashkelon and Tel es–Safi/Gath, the time appears ripe for a reassessment of the available material evidence for a Philistine cult of Dagon at Iron I Ashdod. Through a marshaling of archaeological evidence from the aforementioned sites, it will be shown that, though cultic structures are known from multiple Philistine sites, no indisputable evidence for a temple of any kind has been found in Iron I Ashdod. Further, the only deity for which indisputable evidence exists in Philistia at this time is a fertility goddess with Aegean and Cypriot affinities, who is unlikely to be the Dagon of the biblical account. Though the absence of material support for the Deuteronomistic history’s portrayal of Philistine cult in the Iron I is not itself incontrovertible evidence of the absence of Dagon himself, such a discrepancy between literary and material evidence should reinforce the importance of evidence–based archaeo–historical analysis of literary information, particularly when the alternative is assuming the correctness of elements of a narrative whose overall veracity is generally in doubt.

Well this would bolsters the case that the Deuteronomistic or D source which the book of Judges is a part of was written centuries after the Iron I Age. I believe the way the Deuteronomistic authors saw the Iron I Age would have been similar to the Classical Greeks seeing the Mycenaean and Archaic ages in Greece, namely an age of fables, complete with heroes. Therefore the books of Joshua, Judges, Kings and Chronicles are about as historical as say the Iliad and The Odyssey.

(February 10, 2013 at 2:28 am)Drich Wrote: .. Here is a commentary. READ IT, and THEN if you have any follow questions Based on the Commentary. I can answer those.

Having read the commentary you provided, It seems as though the apologist is saying that god was desecrating their Idol to the god Dagon. The commentator makes several forays to connect unrelated scriptures, but it doesn't seem to change the basics that the Philistines captured the arc, they took it to their house of worship, and because god was not content to be worshiped alongside other gods, jealous jewish god broke up their Idol by knocking off it's head and hands, an act that unsurprisingly resembles what a religious zealot would do today to vandalize an opposing god idol.

This story also underlines the capricious evil that is the jewish god. He allows heathen hands of the philistines to grub all over the arc but kills one of his own who touches it to try to save it from being smashed on the rocks due to a pothole in the road. (Uzzah).

God's reaction here is pretty pathetic. Pushing over a fish man statue is something we would expect of the woo fakers of the Paranormal séance spirit kind, you know, the bump the table kind of thing. Why do you suppose god did it during the night, when no one was around to see it, to make sure it wasn't just a crazy jew in their midst?

Lastly, why was god so interested in that Idol when there were undoubtedly hundreds of thousands in existence at that time? Why didn't god destroy all the idols of the "false" gods everywhere? Why just one that is nearby his alter? Supposedly a god aware of the immense universe would be be able to think in larger scale than a infinitesimally small pinprick of an area on google earth. The commentator claims that god failed to sway them with his lame "miracle" desecration of their one stature, which of course can't be confirmed by archeology.

God failed with his message here. It seems to be an undeniable failure. The intent in desecrating their fish god was to persuade the Philistines to see that their god was inferior and fake and that the jewish god was real. In this, jewish god had no success.

Why was god such a failure?

Drippy, you poor deluded fuck, you can't prove your bible by trotting out some asshole to rehash the same words which have already been shown to have no basis in reality.

The fucking Ark can't triumph over "Dagon" if there was no Ark to begin with. Try to stick with the program. Using one holy joe to back up another is a lot like one person lying and another swearing to it.

There's no evidence that the Biblical ark existed but the idea could have been inspired by ancient Egyptian chests with carrying poles.

Tutankhamun and the Golden Age of the Pharaohs, Page 238

The Egyptian Opet festival.




Must have been quite an impressive spectacle to a bunch of backwoods goat fuckers from Judah.

(February 10, 2013 at 1:56 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The Egyptian Opet festival.

In another topic we were wondering if the Exodus story had been partly inspired by the Hyksos being expelled from Egypt and ending up in Canaan. In the story, the Ark was built by people who'd left Egypt. Take away all the supernatural stuff from the Ark stories and there's just a fancy box which could be carried on poles.

Here's some Egyptian winged figures. Stele of the Hight Priest of Ptah, Shedsunefertem, 945-924 BC

If the Ark ever did turn up, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it looked like something from ancient Egypt.

(February 10, 2013 at 1:56 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Must have been quite an impressive spectacle to a bunch of backwoods goat fuckers from Judah.

Be fair now, the ancient jews liked their donkey sex too, remember Balaam, beating off on his ass?

".......Moses tied his ass to a tree and walked a thousand miles..."


Old joke.

(February 10, 2013 at 12:06 pm)Brakeman Wrote: Having read the commentary you provided, It seems as though the apologist is saying that god was desecrating their Idol to the god Dagon.

Yes by removing the Hands God demonstrated that their god was powerless, By removing the head it shows that the merman was without wisdom. God basically Neutered their fish.

Quote:The commentator makes several forays to connect unrelated scriptures, but it doesn't seem to change the basics that the Philistines captured the arc, they took it to their house of worship, and because god was not content to be worshiped alongside other gods, jealous jewish god broke up their Idol by knocking off it's head and hands, an act that unsurprisingly resembles what a religious zealot would do today to vandalize an opposing god idol.

Quote:This story also underlines the capricious evil that is the jewish god. He allows heathen hands of the philistines to grub all over the arc but kills one of his own who touches it to try to save it from being smashed on the rocks due to a pothole in the road. (Uzzah).

God's reaction here is pretty pathetic. Pushing over a fish man statue is something we would expect of the woo fakers of the Paranormal séance spirit kind, you know, the bump the table kind of thing.

Your over looking a key element. God was there to do these things and nothing could stop Him. That was the message being communicated.

Quote: Why do you suppose god did it during the night, when no one was around to see it, to make sure it wasn't just a crazy jew in their midst?

These events happened over the course of two days, After the first event, don't you think the philistines put an at least their version of an intern or someone in charge of looking over their god for the very reason you mentioned?

Quote:Lastly, why was god so interested in that Idol when there were undoubtedly hundreds of thousands in existence at that time?

That Idol was the central figure in a temple built to worship that specific god, in their most powerful city. For them that idol was the physical embodyment of their god. to destroy that central idol meant all other 'lessor versions' of it were also without power.

Quote:Why didn't god destroy all the idols of the "false" gods everywhere? Why just one that is nearby his alter?

Again it is like cutting the head of a snake off. You 'kill/cut off the head the rest of the snake is powerless. The merman was the 'king' of the philistine gods.

Quote: Supposedly a god aware of the immense universe would be be able to think in larger scale than a infinitesimally small pinprick of an area on google earth. The commentator claims that god failed to sway them with his lame "miracle" desecration of their one stature, which of course can't be confirmed by archeology.

Quote:God failed with his message here. It seems to be an undeniable failure. The intent in desecrating their fish god was to persuade the Philistines to see that their god was inferior and fake and that the jewish god was real. In this, jewish god had no success.

Says who? read the passage again. The philistines abandoned the 'threshold of dagon.' God was not looking to win converts (your confusing Christianity and Judaism again) The Jews were chosen, one had to be born a jew, one could not elect to be a jew.

God was looking to communicate that just because the philistines defeated Israel did not mean He was defeated. He deballed their badest god and then set a plague on the people. The message was clear, that is why they got rid of the ark.

Maybe you should speak to HP Lovecraft - if you have the power to speak to the dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon_%28short_story%29