I feel like I'm going to start a series of threads where I openly talk about the thoughts I have on Deism. Since there's no doctrine for Deism telling me what to do, I think it would be good for me to figure it all out through discussion.

I was wondering today about the foundations of Deism and whether there's reason to think Deism is more than a hypothetical philosophy. Why does our universe exist, but exist with a certain structure? Could it have been possible for matter to appear from nowhere but remain a meaningless blob floating about for eternity? Not only did the universe appear, but it appeared with specific "laws" that we have now identified and they served to shape what we have to the extent that a collective consciousness (us) could be sustained and then able to wonder about its existence.

I'm not saying that life is in anyway proof of a Creator/God. We are here now, which simply means we can bring up questions like "why didn't the universe start off as a blob of matter and stay a blob of matter for all eternity"? The universe quite clearly has some pretty amazing properties and within it are embedded some elegant truths such as those found in mathematics & physics. Why did such complex things get created along with the matter itself at the dawn of spacetime?

(February 28, 2013 at 10:44 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I feel like I'm going to start a series of threads where I openly talk about the thoughts I have on Deism. Since there's no doctrine for Deism telling me what to do, I think it would be good for me to figure it all out through discussion.

I was wondering today about the foundations of Deism and whether there's reason to think Deism is more than a hypothetical philosophy. Why does our universe exist, but exist with a certain structure? Could it have been possible for matter to appear from nowhere but remain a meaningless blob floating about for eternity? Not only did the universe appear, but it appeared with specific "laws" that we have now identified and they served to shape what we have to the extent that a collective consciousness (us) could be sustained and then able to wonder about its existence.

I'm not saying that life is in anyway proof of a Creator/God. We are here now, which simply means we can bring up questions like "why didn't the universe start off as a blob of matter and stay a blob of matter for all eternity"? The universe quite clearly has some pretty amazing properties and within it are embedded some elegant truths such as those found in mathematics & physics. Why did such complex things get created along with the matter itself at the dawn of spacetime?

I think the major problem with deism is that it doesn't actually answer any of your questions.
If you ascribe the creation of it all to a creator, from whence the creator?

Simplify and leave out the creator.

Fallen, I am going to direct you to a book that I am currently reading that addresses these very issues. It is by Laurence Krauss and it is called A Universe From Nothing: Why there is something rather than nothing.
A Universe From Nothing

Check it out. I think it will be very enlightening for you.

(February 28, 2013 at 10:44 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I feel like I'm going to start a series of threads where I openly talk about the thoughts I have on Deism. Since there's no doctrine for Deism telling me what to do, I think it would be good for me to figure it all out through discussion.

I was wondering today about the foundations of Deism and whether there's reason to think Deism is more than a hypothetical philosophy. Why does our universe exist, but exist with a certain structure? Could it have been possible for matter to appear from nowhere but remain a meaningless blob floating about for eternity? Not only did the universe appear, but it appeared with specific "laws" that we have now identified and they served to shape what we have to the extent that a collective consciousness (us) could be sustained and then able to wonder about its existence.

I'm not saying that life is in anyway proof of a Creator/God. We are here now, which simply means we can bring up questions like "why didn't the universe start off as a blob of matter and stay a blob of matter for all eternity"? The universe quite clearly has some pretty amazing properties and within it are embedded some elegant truths such as those found in mathematics & physics. Why did such complex things get created along with the matter itself at the dawn of spacetime?

So you fell to reason...

...and then lost your reason again, because you shit your pants and decided to believe that there is something after all. For no good reason other that there are unanswered/unanswerable questions.

You might as well go back to church.

Thanks for the book recommendation!
Awww, no kindle version from there. But I did find a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaB-zq864-c

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By the way, a slide-back is not that hard. After nearly 60 years of indoctrination, it's hard for me NOT to say a blessing unconsciously before drinking a glass of water, or when I hear thunder, or when I taste a new piece of fruit for the year. It's been drilled into me and it just sort of comes out. The acknowledgement of God is so ingrained that it's going to take a bit of deprogramming for me to clear my head.

It is so egocentric for me to believe that the Creator of the universe (a) gives a damn that a tiny speck is thanking him for the water (b) even hears the blessing or © is even there. God was created by man, not the other way around. Because if a God did create the Universe, do you really think that he or she has selected Earthers as His special people any more than selecting the Jews of all of the people? Why not some other life form? Or better yet, He plays no favorites.

And the believers, they tell you that God is everywhere. He just stopped talking about 2000 years ago, stopped whispering to prophets, stopped stopped interfering in nature (stopping the sun, splitting the sea, bursting the sky with a gread sound and light show, opening the earth to swalloy bad people). And if all of those stories are false, then believing in God is like wanting to keep that wisdom tooth - it serves no purpose and will just be a pain down the road.

And that is IF there is a God. But the problem with this whole God business is to echo Chas, that "he has no beginning nor end" so how did he get here?

For Athena, we got her popping out of her dad's forehead, like a big zit. And most of the older gods have a creation story (I like Uranos who came from Chaos, which causes one to ask where did Chaos come from, or the Titans from which Athena came?). Even Jesus has a father and a 90-year old step dad.

But what about the absolute source? That is easy to slip to. To be non-dogmatic about atheism, I keep it in the "Well, it could possible but I want evidence". But for myself, I have yet to see it. I hold Atheism as a theory - it is true until it is disproven. And so far, like the theory of gravity, it's working out fine.

(February 28, 2013 at 12:19 pm)EGross Wrote: Thanks for the book recommendation!

By the way, a slide-back is not that hard. After nearly 60 years of indoctrination, it's hard for me NOT to say a blessing unconsciously before drinking a glass of water, or when I hear thunder, or when I taste a new piece of fruit for the year. It's been drilled into me and it just sort of comes out. The acknowledgement of God is so ingrained that it's going to take a bit of deprogramming for me to clear my head.

It is so egocentric for me to believe that the Creator of the universe (a) gives a damn that a tiny speck is thanking him for the water (b) even hears the blessing or © is even there. God was created by man, not the other way around. Because if a God did create the Universe, do you really think that he or she has selected Earthers as His special people any more than selecting the Jews of all of the people? Why not some other life form? Or better yet, He plays no favorites.

And the believers, they tell you that God is everywhere. He just stopped talking about 2000 years ago, stopped whispering to prophets, stopped stopped interfering in nature (stopping the sun, splitting the sea, bursting the sky with a gread sound and light show, opening the earth to swalloy bad people). And if all of those stories are false, then believing in God is like wanting to keep that wisdom tooth - it serves no purpose and will just be a pain down the road.

And that is IF there is a God. But the problem with this whole God business is to echo Chas, that "he has no beginning nor end" so how did he get here?

For Athena, we got her popping out of her dad's forehead, like a big zit. And most of the older gods have a creation story (I like Uranos who came from Chaos, which causes one to ask where did Chaos come from, or the Titans from which Athena came?). Even Jesus has a father and a 90-year old step dad.

But what about the absolute source? That is easy to slip to. To be non-dogmatic about atheism, I keep it in the "Well, it could possible but I want evidence". But for myself, I have yet to see it. I hold Atheism as a theory - it is true until it is disproven. And so far, like the theory of gravity, it's working out fine.

I have the kindle version so it is available out there. Take a look around and find it. It will be more than worth your time.

Found a .EPUB version from SimonAndSchuster.com. Thanks.

(February 28, 2013 at 4:34 pm)EGross Wrote: Found a .EPUB version from SimonAndSchuster.com. Thanks.

Enjoy and please let me know what you think.

(February 28, 2013 at 12:19 pm)EGross Wrote: But the problem with this whole God business is to echo Chas, that "he has no beginning nor end" so how did he get here?

The answer is that God is outside of time and space, i.e. He's always been there.

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(February 28, 2013 at 11:09 am)Baalzebutt Wrote: Fallen, I am going to direct you to a book that I am currently reading that addresses these very issues. It is by Laurence Krauss and it is called A Universe From Nothing: Why there is something rather than nothing.

Read the last six pages where he concedes that his concept of nothing isn't absolute nothing, but pre-existing initial conditions.

(February 28, 2013 at 7:29 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The answer is that God is outside of time and space, i.e. He's always been there.

Don't you think this is a little bit of an ironic explaination relative to your sig block?

If god can be eternal, why can't the universe be eternal?