(April 29, 2013 at 4:55 pm)Tex Wrote: Euthanasia is glorified suicide and is just as immoral.

Don't help euthanize anyone then. Its that simple.

(April 29, 2013 at 6:20 pm)Tex Wrote: Don't think I said any of this. I'm not pro-torture.

What are you then? Sitting on the fence?

Please explain what action you think is moral if a person requests euthanasia when they are in the kind of pain I described, and they do not have the means to end their lives without assistance.

You say euthanasia is immoral, what action do you think is more moral then than giving a person in such a condition their wish?

(April 29, 2013 at 4:55 pm)Tex Wrote: Euthanasia is glorified suicide and is just as immoral.

Leave it to a christian to sing the praises of the subjugation of reason to the make belief even when doing so is torture, to which he would then added the additional immorality of deception.

(April 29, 2013 at 6:20 pm)Tex Wrote: Funny, I don't think the bible mentions much on the ethics of suicide, at least directly. I get this from logic.

Well, don't stop there. Please, enlighten us as to how you've used logic to conclude euthanasia is immoral.

And make it good, because if you're going to insist that someone suffer through a painful process that he/she will die from anyway, you better have a damn good reason.

(April 29, 2013 at 6:29 pm)Insanity x Wrote:

(April 29, 2013 at 4:55 pm)Tex Wrote: Euthanasia is glorified suicide and is just as immoral.

Don't help euthanize anyone then. Its that simple.

Well of course not. But I also have to find the doctor and charge him with murder. If the doctor has a euthanasia appointment and the cops get there first, it's just attempted murder. The guy who wants it then can be sent to a psych ward to get the help he needs.

(April 29, 2013 at 6:48 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(April 29, 2013 at 6:20 pm)Tex Wrote: Don't think I said any of this. I'm not pro-torture.

What are you then? Sitting on the fence?

Please explain what action you think is moral if a person requests euthanasia when they are in the kind of pain I described, and they do not have the means to end their lives without assistance.

You say euthanasia is immoral, what action do you think is more moral then than giving a person in such a condition their wish?

If a person requests euthanasia, regardless of circumstance, the request should be denied. If there is lots of pain, you give them morphine. If all the morphine in the world doesn't stop the pain, you look for a way to stop the pain that doesn't involve killing the person. Granting people's wish does not make it moral.

(April 29, 2013 at 7:08 pm)Chuck Wrote:

(April 29, 2013 at 4:55 pm)Tex Wrote: Euthanasia is glorified suicide and is just as immoral.

Leave it to a christian to sing the praises of the subjugation of reason to the make belief even when doing so is torture, to which he would then added the additional immorality of deception.

Ad hom. Attack the argument, please.

Either way, you are unreasonable, not me. You support murder. I desire to help the individual, not kill them.

(April 29, 2013 at 7:44 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(April 29, 2013 at 6:20 pm)Tex Wrote: Funny, I don't think the bible mentions much on the ethics of suicide, at least directly. I get this from logic.

Well, don't stop there. Please, enlighten us as to how you've used logic to conclude euthanasia is immoral.

And make it good, because if you're going to insist that someone suffer through a painful process that he/she will die from anyway, you better have a damn good reason.

Sure.

If someone is living and we go out of our way to halt their life, it is called "murder". "Murder" is bad. We want to avoid "murder". If they do it by themselves, it is called "suicide". "Suicide" is also bad. We don't want that either.

Instead, a better option is to find the problem and fix it. If we don't know how to fix it, we figure out how to fix it. For every person that is in pain and just says "Fuck it, I'm done" is one more person in pain later down the road for the same reason. The people in pain can have whatever pain medication will help, but never can we facilitate death. Those people are still valuable. We should not destroy them.

(April 29, 2013 at 8:47 pm)Tex Wrote: If someone is living and we go out of our way to halt their life, it is called "murder".

False. Murder is the unlawful taking of a life, which is precisely what this issue is about. Should assisting someone in their death be lawful?

(April 29, 2013 at 8:47 pm)Tex Wrote: "Murder" is bad. We want to avoid "murder". If they do it by themselves, it is called "suicide". "Suicide" is also bad. We don't want that either.

Can you prove suicide is bad, or is that just your opinion?

(April 29, 2013 at 8:47 pm)Tex Wrote: Instead, a better option is to find the problem and fix it.

Better for who? The person suffering?

(April 29, 2013 at 8:47 pm)Tex Wrote: If we don't know how to fix it, we figure out how to fix it. For every person that is in pain and just says "Fuck it, I'm done" is one more person in pain later down the road for the same reason.

So, someone should have to suffer through unimaginable pain so we can experiment on them, and that person should be obligated to partake?

(April 29, 2013 at 8:47 pm)Tex Wrote: The people in pain can have whatever pain medication will help, but never can we facilitate death. Those people are still valuable.

Regardless of the fact that pain medication can be wholly inadequate to deal with human suffering, only the person living that life can determine whether their life is valuable enough to continue.

(April 29, 2013 at 8:47 pm)Tex Wrote: We should not destroy them.

You are simply using emotion in an attempt to bolster your argument here. We are not "destroying" them. We are helping them facilitate their own death.

(April 29, 2013 at 8:47 pm)Tex Wrote: If a person requests euthanasia, regardless of circumstance, the request should be denied. If there is lots of pain, you give them morphine. If all the morphine in the world doesn't stop the pain, you look for a way to stop the pain that doesn't involve killing the person. Granting people's wish does not make it moral.

There comes a point where if you give someone enough medication to dull the pain, they will be so out of it they might as well be dead (or actually die from an overdose of painkillers).

(April 29, 2013 at 8:47 pm)Tex Wrote: Instead, a better option is to find the problem and fix it. If we don't know how to fix it, we figure out how to fix it.

(April 29, 2013 at 2:48 pm)Luminox Wrote: ...and that doctors must be certain the pain they are suffering, whether physical, psychological or both, is caused by a serious and incurable condition, and is constant, unbearable and cannot be mitigated.

Bolding mine

Maybe you missed this part?

(April 29, 2013 at 4:55 pm)Tex Wrote: Euthanasia is glorified suicide and is just as immoral.

Explain.

I am totally pro-euthanasia and I have yet to see any convincing anti-euthanasia arguments.

(April 29, 2013 at 2:48 pm)Luminox Wrote: In Belgium, euthanasia has been legal since the passing of the Belgian Act on Euthanasia in 2002, which states that:

"Adults (18 and older) who want euthanasia must repeatedly and explicitly show their willingness to end their life, must prove that their decision was taken without external pressure and that doctors must be certain the pain they are suffering, whether physical, psychological or both, is caused by a serious and incurable condition, and is constant, unbearable and cannot be mitigated."
(RTE News (03/06/2013), "Belgian Senate considers extending euthanasia to minors", http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0306/374348-...uthanasia/)

Ten years after the passing of this Act, the Belgian Senate considers extending euthanasia to minors.

What is your opinion on this matter?


PS: The exact 'minimum age' is not yet known, nor is it clear whether the parents/guardian take part in the decision.

Well ... They are Belgians after all.

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(April 29, 2013 at 5:57 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Shouldn't this extension to minors also include some sort of parental agreement, if possible?

That not said in either the old or new testament. Where did you get that notion?

(April 29, 2013 at 6:20 pm)Tex Wrote: Funny, I don't think the bible mentions much on the ethics of suicide, at least directly. I get this from logic.

Well why don't you use your logic to realize that talking about owning and beating slaves (and that doesn't even scratch the surface of other disgusting things) disqualifies it from using it as a moral guideline.