I'm sure you are all well versed in the idea of having free will to choose good or bad actions as you please. It is used as the basis of the Christian argument as to why God allows evil to exist in the world. People must have the free will to do either good or bad and therefore choose to worship God themselves to gain entry to heaven. However if we analyse this further we will see that "free will" doesn't truly exist.

Me having "free will" would suggest that I have completely random thoughts going through my brain at a rate that allows me to act upon the good thoughts or the bad ones. Sounds simple enough but this isn't true. The process of my thoughts, feelings, emotions are a result of my character that has developed from a child until now. If I done something out of character then a friend or family member would notice this and point it out to me. This surely indicates that there Is a pattern to my behaviour that has been modified to reflect the circumstances in which I have grew up in, life experiences etc.

If I was to move from where I live now and go into a different environment with new people around me, then over time my character would change to reflect the new environment. This result in an adjustment of my moral compass and further emphasises that the thoughts going through my brain have been developed in a structured way and aren't simply random thoughts of good and evil acts.

“Take a moment to think about the context in which your next decision will occur: You did not pick your parents or the time and place of your birth. You didn't choose your gender or most of your life experiences. You had no control whatsoever over your genome or the development of your brain. And now your brain is making choices on the basis of preferences and beliefs that have been hammered into it over a lifetime - by your genes, your physical development since the moment you were conceived, and the interactions you have had with other people, events, and ideas. Where is the freedom in this? Yes, you are free to do what you want even now. But where did your desires come from?”
― Sam Harris, Free Will

Hope this helps to shed light on the flawed concept of "free will". Even when considering a person's blame when they commit a certain crime we consider the current mental state of the individual and the circumstances it occurred In thus negating the notion of free will. It would seem that we don't have as much control over our decisions as we ultimately think

Or... you could just go and say "You are a biological machine, and will have an identical output in an identical scenario given an identical input no matter how many times you run it through." Offends fewer people, makes a statement about whether will is 'free' based on determinism. To which then some non-deterministic person disagrees given that they do not subscribe to determinism, rendering the argument pointless to them, and you might both come out of the experience enlightened, enriched, and hating each other's guts like they were satan.

But... you didn't say lick about free will, only that location and timing is a factor in the decisions you make. You're a genius, ain't nobody ever thought of that one before!

Edit: readability for retards.

(May 2, 2013 at 1:54 pm)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: Or... you could just go and say "You are a biological machine, and will have an identical output in an identical scenario given an identical input no matter how many times you run it through." Offends fewer people, makes a statement about whether will is 'free' based on determinism. To which then some non-deterministic person disagrees given that they do not subscribe to determinism, rendering the argument pointless to them, and you might both come out of the experience enlightened, enriched, and hating each other's guts like they were satan.

But... you didn't say lick about free will, only that location and timing is a factor in the decisions you make. You're a genius, ain't nobody ever thought of that one before!

Edit: readability for retards.

I get what you are saying but I disagree with you. If you consider the multi-verse theory being that there are parallel universes with an alternate version of ourselves based on us making slightly different choices in one of the other universe then it calls into question weather we would always make identical decisions based on our circumstances being exactly the same. You may think this is refuting my point on free will but rather I am saying that this concept of complete free will is false. That does not mean to say that we can make choices that would be considered unlikely of a person who has been brought up in a bad environment for example. Instead I'm emphasising the fact that there is often a pattern to people's behaviour and it isn't simply an exercise of ultimate choice. Also when you add factors we inherit from birth then it makes free will seem a lot less likely. I believe that people are born gay. The evidence does seem to point towards this. Homosexuality even occurs among animals at a rate of about 10%. We know that mental illness can be passed down from parent to child. Someone with a mental health problem certainly doesn't experience full control over their decisions all the time.

I never claimed to be a genius so don't make a remark that suggests I value myself as being above others in intelligence. Maybe If I accomplish something worthy of that status I'll make that claim but I despise people who shamelessly appoint such titles upon themselves without merit.

Of course there will be people that disagree with what I'm saying and there's not much I can do other than to explain my point. Certainly a religious person is going to maintain that God has a plan for them and there life isn't just a random collection of events. From that perspective I can't really change their minds. That's the same with any devout religious person.

Satan is a cool guy btw

I feel you've failed to engage the literature in any substantive way and have resorted to merely parroting other people's opinions.

(May 3, 2013 at 12:41 pm)apophenia Wrote:


I feel you've failed to engage the literature in any substantive way and have resorted to merely parroting other people's opinions.

I quoted Sam Harris to show evidence from a psychologist on this view point. I have gone into a bit of detail and am not merely trying to parrot other people's opinions as you put it. I do genuinely believe that this idea of having free will is questionable. I get up in the morning and go through my daily routine doing certain things and it seems like I am in total control of everything but am I really? I also think about this idea that there could be a set of predetermined responses that give the illusion of free will in such away that allows us to feel like we have ultimate control but really we don't. It is difficult to prove for certain one way or another but I like to keep my mind open to all sorts of possibilities.

I think that everybody is repeating what they learned from another person or source with what they say as before we know something we have to be educated in it by someone else. When we are born we know nothing and so everything we know now has been taught to us. The difference is showing an understanding of something rather than just reciting something you have learned, but thanks for the feedback

Biological processes in body, thoughts all being controlled by something. Not Us atleast we are like driver in a car, we didn't build this car we don't control its processes, we just drive, clean, give it fuel. Really strange relations. For me its like the one who experience everything driver is chaotic, crazy, destructive at times, but body is perfect biological machine that is here to hold user online.

(May 3, 2013 at 11:47 am)TheGoodwillingAtheist Wrote: I get what you are saying but I disagree with you.

Well then, that would make you nondeterministic, leaving free will probable.

Quote:If you consider the multi-verse theory being that there are parallel universes with an alternate version of ourselves based on us making slightly different choices in one of the other universe then it calls into question weather we would always make identical decisions based on our circumstances being exactly the same.

An 'alternate version' of yourself is necessarily modified: their location is not the same, therefore their IDENTITY is not the same. They can do a thing without you also doing said thing, you are not equal beings.

YOU will ALWAYS make an identical decision in an identical situation. THEY, who are NOT YOU, will always make an identical decision in an identical situation, but it will not have been your decision.

Welcome to determinism, and gross an understanding of identity

Quote:You may think this is refuting my point on free will but rather I am saying that this concept of complete free will is false.

You never made a point on free will, as I was clear to note. You made annotation or twenty of identity, and would do well to not confuse the two.

Further, there are varying concepts of 'complete free will', and having freedom of identity (formulation) is not the same as having freedom of will (decision), the latter of which is grounded upon a being's mind or, as is often argued, spirit.

Quote:That does not mean to say that we can make choices that would be considered unlikely of a person who has been brought up in a bad environment for example.

Missing the 't on 'can', yes?

Whether a 'choice' is considered unlikely for a being to make or not has no bearing upon whether it is, or is not, made.

Quote:Instead I'm emphasising the fact that there is often a pattern to people's behaviour and it isn't simply an exercise of ultimate choice.

"There's often a pattern to people's behavior"? That means that sometimes there is no pattern to people's behavior. Sounds like a broken rule, you might want to remake it.

Quote:Also when you add factors we inherit from birth then it makes free will seem a lot less likely. I believe that people are born gay. The evidence does seem to point towards this. Homosexuality even occurs among animals at a rate of about 10%. We know that mental illness can be passed down from parent to child. Someone with a mental health problem certainly doesn't experience full control over their decisions all the time.

Stop confusing identity and the will of the being

I believe that whether or not people are born gay is irrelevant to their being gay as an adult. Just as having mental illnesses passed to you is irrelevant to your experiencing them as an adult. I swear, people are more fussy over where a state of someone comes from than of what that state means... I don't care if someone is born with terrorism in their heart: I care if they're intending to inflict it upon mine

Someone with a mental health problem always experiences full control over their decisions all the time... but it may not be conscious control over their decisions. This is considering the whole of their being, and not their mind or spirit separate from this... not sure what you believe, not sure that it matters.

Quote:I never claimed to be a genius so don't make a remark that suggests I value myself as being above others in intelligence. Maybe If I accomplish something worthy of that status I'll make that claim but I despise people who shamelessly appoint such titles upon themselves without merit.

Learn to sarcasm This response ^ is just hilarious considering what set it off. Who's 'shamelessly appointing' themselves as a genius?

Quote:Of course there will be people that disagree with what I'm saying and there's not much I can do other than to explain my point.

I should think there would be. Wouldn't it be just great if you were to explain your point, or indeed inform us of what it is?

Quote:Certainly a religious person is going to maintain that God has a plan for them and there life isn't just a random collection of events. From that perspective I can't really change their minds. That's the same with any devout religious person.

Or... one can observe that even a being with a plan for you and your life has given you free will, and allowed you a choice to follow that plan or not.

Cool huh? It's always the same with these anti-religious persons, you just can't change their minds with reason

Quote:Satan is a cool guy btw

I rather thought he was a dick, and his daddy a giant prick.

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(May 4, 2013 at 1:23 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: Biological processes in body, thoughts all being controlled by something. Not Us atleast we are like driver in a car, we didn't build this car we don't control its processes, we just drive, clean, give it fuel. Really strange relations. For me its like the one who experience everything driver is chaotic, crazy, destructive at times, but body is perfect biological machine that is here to hold user online.

That's an interesting way to say "I'm a violent crazy person with no restraint."

I'll try to remember it if I ever rape someone

Yes you are correct "christiandom" believe's the false doctrin of "free will", this is because they have not a clue what is really wtitten in the scriptures, the message within the Bible, has bean replaced over time by the theory's of theologians, because of this deceit, they are now under the illusion they play some part in there own salvation, which is neither scriptual but herecy, even when one points out the many verses that are explicit in this regard, they will cling to their man made doctrins ??? Truth be told not one of "christandom's" doctrins are scriptual, which proves they dont believe the Words of God !

Huh... a poe. Cool

We totally don't have enough of those about, welcome to the forum

Sam Harris is a philosopher, author, and neuroscientist. He is not a psychologist.