All in all there has not been a logical argument to support the actions of animal activists. As far as I am to understand PETA and their ilk don't give two hoots about animals and are only interested in capturing a niche political demographic via emotive propaganda with no recourse to reality.

To accept that, as whateverist has stated, we are a part of not apart from this ecosystem called earth is the only way forward. A "Clean Kill" is ALWAYS preferred above the debauchery of Kosher and Halal methods and that animals and us co-exist and are slaves to each other has brought our species to this impasse where politics is taking centre stage to the actual issue at hand.

I will reiterate, IF you enjoy vegan/ vegetarianism and your body tolerates it...ALL kudos to you. 75% of the total world population are unable to do so (rough guesstimate) The continuous pounding of the "moral High Ground" of vegan/vegetarianism is becoming just another religion, perhaps to replace the abrahamic god?

And talk about not knowing a person littleendian...I am quite within my rights to accuse you of the same thing. I asked questions and you give me propaganda and vilification... well done.

I would now be interested to know, if the vegans here are actualy interested in debating topics other than animal rights?

(June 3, 2013 at 8:48 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Joy? Again you are anthropomorphising/ projecting YOUR feelings on to another species...and this is ok by you?

Are you seriously questioning that other species can feel joy or suffering? What evolutionary miracle would that be if only the human race had that trait!

(June 3, 2013 at 9:01 am)littleendian Wrote:

(June 3, 2013 at 8:48 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Joy? Again you are anthropomorphising/ projecting YOUR feelings on to another species...and this is ok by you?

Are you seriously questioning that other species can feel joy or suffering? What evolutionary miracle would that be if only the human race had that trait!

You have successfully painted humans and unfeeling ravenous monsters. So then by the above statement animals are unable to "feel" as humans do and you negate your argument...well done.

You are still striving for the moral "high Ground" from your posts it would seem that you enjoy taking the "Moral High Ground" and set yourself apart from this world you live in.

(June 3, 2013 at 8:59 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: I will reiterate, IF you enjoy vegan/ vegetarianism and your body tolerates it...ALL kudos to you. 75% of the total world population are unable to do so (rough guesstimate)

That's just an arbitrary figure you plucked from the air now! Back it up with evidence or draw back that claim!

(June 3, 2013 at 8:59 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: The continuous pounding of the "moral High Ground" of vegan/vegetarianism is becoming just another religion,

I don't know what you keep hearing, but I've never said anything about a high ground. Either it is right or wrong to kill other animals, and we're still debating about this. If you secretly assume that it's wrong to kill, which I suspect, then I guess you feel bad for having to supporting it, and that's terrible, but I'm not responsible for that.

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(June 3, 2013 at 9:05 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: You have successfully painted humans and unfeeling ravenous monsters. So then by the above statement animals are unable to "feel" as humans do and you negate your argument...well done.

I've not said anything about humans except that they need to switch their magnificent brains on and think for themselfs, that's all. There's too much herd thinking going on.

(June 3, 2013 at 9:05 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: You are still striving for the moral "high Ground" from your posts it would seem that you enjoy taking the "Moral High Ground" and set yourself apart from this world you live in.

This is ad-hominem bullshit and I'm not in the market for bullshit, so I'm not buying, sorry. Keep it to the point.

(June 3, 2013 at 9:01 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: I would now be interested to know, if the vegans here are actualy interested in debating topics other than animal rights?

Some of them TGAC, some of them, those who are not striving to take the "moral High Ground" and are comfortable with their life choices and themselves. The others? I'm not certain.....they seem to NEED a new "religion" and animal activism seems to fit the bit as the dumb animals are unable to say anything and only the City dwellers can speak animal apparently.

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(June 3, 2013 at 9:05 am)littleendian Wrote:

(June 3, 2013 at 8:59 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: I will reiterate, IF you enjoy vegan/ vegetarianism and your body tolerates it...ALL kudos to you. 75% of the total world population are unable to do so (rough guesstimate)

That's just an arbitrary figure you plucked from the air now! Back it up with evidence or draw back that claim!

(June 3, 2013 at 8:59 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: The continuous pounding of the "moral High Ground" of vegan/vegetarianism is becoming just another religion,

I don't know what you keep hearing, but I've never said anything about a high ground. Either it is right or wrong to kill other animals, and we're still debating about this. If you secretly assume that it's wrong to kill, which I suspect, then I guess you feel bad for having to supporting it, and that's terrible, but I'm not responsible for that.

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(June 3, 2013 at 9:05 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: You have successfully painted humans and unfeeling ravenous monsters. So then by the above statement animals are unable to "feel" as humans do and you negate your argument...well done.

I've not said anything about humans except that they need to switch their magnificent brains on and think for themselfs, that's all. There's too much herd thinking going on.

(June 3, 2013 at 9:05 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: You are still striving for the moral "high Ground" from your posts it would seem that you enjoy taking the "Moral High Ground" and set yourself apart from this world you live in.

This is ad-hominem bullshit and I'm not in the market for bullshit, so I'm not buying, sorry. Keep it to the point.

I'm sorry? You deliberately misinterpret my questions and accuse me? YOU are the one advocating that we should ALL drop our omnivoroues ways are you not? You are the one painting ALL humans as herd monsters are you not? YOU are the one who doesn't think beyond his own ideology are you not? YOU are the one projecting his ideology onto all an sundry.

Animal activism is a lost cause as it has been hijacked (like so many other great ideas) by those who would emotionally manipulate you and this is the tool of a religion NOT a paradigm shift.

YOU are the one who has to wake up and stop trying to blame others for your own inadequacies. I have NOT deviated from the point and have not offered an ad-hominem.

YOU have no argument as this issue is rather complex and as such I have asked questions and given scenarios for your consideration or to challenge you points.

I would posit that YOU are the one subscribing to "herd thinking"

(June 3, 2013 at 7:49 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: And yet you still happily delegate vegetables as low life and inferior and therefore fit for your consumption?

littleendian already answered this by referring to plants' lack of a central nervous system, so repeating this argument is akin to trolling. It also offers nothing constructive to the debate, since consumption of plant life (either directly or by filtering it through an animal as you do) is necessary for survival. Unless you're advocating suicide? Again, not constructive or applicable to reality.

Okay, this is now deteriorating into simple name-calling and accusations, of which I'm admittedly not innocent, but it won't help anyone and the internet has already enough flame wars on record. So I'm taking a hiatus from this thread until the dust settled or very interesting new points emerge

(June 3, 2013 at 9:15 am)Forbinator Wrote:

(June 3, 2013 at 7:49 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: And yet you still happily delegate vegetables as low life and inferior and therefore fit for your consumption?

littleendian already answered this by referring to plants' lack of a central nervous system, so repeating this argument is akin to trolling. It also offers nothing constructive to the debate, since consumption of plant life (either directly or by filtering it through an animal as you do) is necessary for survival. Unless you're advocating suicide? Again, not constructive or applicable to reality.

So now you are being speciesist? it's ok to vilify and exploit a living creature so long as it is not like you?

I'm sorry? You are advocating the direct use of plant material and holding this up as preferable to those who need the next step of having it digested through a meat animal? And that those who prefer this added step should commit suicide?

And who said this was a debate? This is a discussion and your comments are not constructive at this point in my opinion.

So essentially you are both not reading my posts and are determined to take this fallacious "moral high ground"?

Do you both live on/in this planet? have you learnt nothing? Or do you prefer to have your ideologies fed to you by the likes of PETA and their ilk?

(June 3, 2013 at 8:59 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: To accept that, as whateverist has stated, we are a part of not apart from this ecosystem called earth is the only way forward. A "Clean Kill" is ALWAYS preferred above the debauchery of Kosher and Halal methods and that animals and us co-exist and are slaves to each other has brought our species to this impasse where politics is taking centre stage to the actual issue at hand.

So you are against animal cruelty then, at least to the extent that it is convenient for you. May I ask why? If you're rejecting the notion that we should behave in a civilised manner towards them, then surely animal cruelty would be acceptable under that system? "The Germans are Coming" has already brushed this aside by saying that morality is always based on convenience, but surely there are moral positions where people are required to rise above convenience? There is a serious inconsistency if you're against beating a cow with a stick for fun (senseless cruelty) but are happy to pay slaughterhouse workers to beat a cow with a stick to get her to walk to her death (legalised cruelty that is inevitable in that system of food production). To you, these actions are different, but to the victim they are identical. Why be against one cruelty but support another?