There is the other part of the whole ecosystem that vegans/ vegetarians seem to overlook and that is the sustainability of the soil that they want to derive their sustenance from.

Am I right Rhythm? We NEED the shit from our domestic animals to sustain our soil biomass which in turn sustains the viability of growing enough crops to feed a hungry planet. This being said there are those parts of the planet that (liken to Australia) do NOT have the rainfall levels to sustain said "crops" and the usage of say Merino Sheep on such land to bring it up to fertility might be a better use of such land? And then what of the wool fibre, hemp fibre, cotton (very water intensive and due to the recent flooding of parts of Queensland in Australia are about to produce a bumper crop) Silk fibre and Flax (let's no forget the Kiwi's in all this) The provision of fibre and food ,both meat and vegetable is what keeps our planet 's economy churning over.

I seriously object to the dogmatic regurgitations of those who have no interest in being a part of this system and strive to set themselves up as pseudo-deities propounding the "Eating and Enslavement of Animals is wrong" when they are incapable of looking past their own dogma. They are no better than the abrahamic religions and at worst no better than islamic fundamentalism in their attitude.

Many here have said that YES (and a very big YES it is) we can do much better in the raising and protection of our livestock....but know this...our Livestock is just as manipulative as we are of it. Life on this planet is a symbiotic relationship that most animal activists see fit to overlook and are putting themselves in the position that they are vilifying.

Ergo. The argument from emotion is invalid as is has not substance in reality and purports to set up a new regime that will end up destroying that which it seeks to protect, but then that is humanity's burden

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(June 4, 2013 at 6:53 am)littleendian Wrote:

(June 4, 2013 at 6:47 am)Aractus Wrote: And do I think that farmers care about the wellbeing of their livestock? Yes I do - what kind of farmers do you know that don't??

These farmers:





Or the farmers exporting their live sheep:

Naturally this is sooo much better than mulsing

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And these

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Yes...so much MORE humanes to allow sheep to suffer this, after all ....it's natural

(June 4, 2013 at 7:10 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Am I right Rhythm? We NEED the shit from our domestic animals to sustain our soil biomass which in turn sustains the viability of growing enough crops to feed a hungry planet.

Bullshit, if you had ever had your own vegetable garden you would know that it is possible to keep the soil going without massive amounts of shit. Of course you need to know what you're doing, but that's not the issue here.

edit: And particularly not the toxic waste that comes out of the cows fed unnatural diets like soy!

Quote:They are no better than the abrahamic religions and at worst no better than islamic fundamentalism in their attitude.

You simply believe and do what everyone does, that is so much better than thinking about ones actions and changing, even against the strong wind of majority opposition everywhere. Some might think it fundamentalist to kill someone for dinner. Just because it's against what everyone believes doesn't prove anything.

Quote:Naturally this is sooo much better than mulsing

No, it isn't, but the answer must be neither! Sheep didn't have this problem until we bred the shit out of them to produce more wool!

(June 4, 2013 at 7:07 am)littleendian Wrote:

(June 4, 2013 at 7:00 am)Aractus Wrote: yes it causes the sheep some short-term temporary pain.

Long-term, long-term is the word you're looking for, look at the blood gushing for crying out loud.

(June 4, 2013 at 7:00 am)Aractus Wrote: Get over it.

No, I won't. If you want to be a person who just gets over this kind of cruelty being commited billion fold, go ahead, but don't tell me to join your club. Never.

Oh my goodness! "This kind of cruelty"? IT'S DONE FOR THE WELFARE OF THE ANIMAL! What part of that do you not understand? Of course the sheep don't like it, of course it's painful, of course there's blood - but "cruelty" Cruelty would be to NOT do it and allow them to face the possibility of a far worse fate that results in death.

Quote:It's only a choice between this and flystrike because we have overbred these poor creatures and now they're not fit for a decent life anymore. Is it really too much to ask of you to acknowledge that there might be something going wrong here?

There are other options that farmers use as well as mulesing. Including selective-breeding. We don't live in a perfect world you know...

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@Kichi - Those photos are truly awful!

I am also of the opinion that this whole vegan/ vegetarianism "by ethical choice" is just snobbery via the Northern Hemispherean elite who have been so removed from the farm that their cousins and neighbours just shake there heads in disbelief. It is nothing more than "First World angst" and yes I agree with Daniel lil'endian... get over it. Or go back to the farm for a year or three. And whatever you do ...don't come to Australia mate.

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(June 4, 2013 at 7:16 am)littleendian Wrote:

(June 4, 2013 at 7:10 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Am I right Rhythm? We NEED the shit from our domestic animals to sustain our soil biomass which in turn sustains the viability of growing enough crops to feed a hungry planet.

Bullshit, if you had ever had your own vegetable garden you would know that it is possible to keep the soil going without massive amounts of shit. Of course you need to know what you're doing, but that's not the issue here.

Quote:They are no better than the abrahamic religions and at worst no better than islamic fundamentalism in their attitude.

You simply believe and do what everyone does, that is so much better than thinking about ones actions and changing, even against the strong wind of majority opposition everywhere. Some might think it fundamentalist to kill someone for dinner. Just because it's against what everyone believes doesn't prove anything.

Quote:Naturally this is sooo much better than mulsing

No, it isn't, but the answer must be neither! Sheep didn't have this problem until we bred the shit out of them to produce more wool!

You really are stupid ya know? My vegetable garden THRIVES on COW POO! What an idiot! WHY do you think I am advocating this? You are A PART OF this ecosystem and yet YOU want to set yourself up as judge jury and executioner against the very system that will sustain you vegan/ vegetarian lifestyle choice?

Pathetic, " the sheep didn't have this issue until we bred than to produce more wool" have you had a look at the breeds of sheep I have posted? There are three differing breeds there all of varying wool and meat production. You are just reinforcing my opinion that you are just a mindless sheeple babbling the indoctrination fed to you liken to a religious nutjob.

(June 4, 2013 at 7:17 am)Aractus Wrote: Oh my goodness! "This kind of cruelty"? IT'S DONE FOR THE WELFARE OF THE ANIMAL!

Newspeak if ever there was one, can't you see how absurd this is? Stop producing millions of animals if it requires such traumatic acts to keep them alive because of overbreeding!

Quote: Including selective-breeding. We don't live in a perfect world you know...

No, not perfect, but we can make it better, each one of us.

(June 4, 2013 at 7:17 am)Aractus Wrote: @Kichi - Those photos are truly awful!

They are true none the less and why the practice of muelsing was initiated here in Australia in the first place Daniel. I am not that far removed from the "Land" and Farming not to understand how our Australian soils work and what our farmers do.

It isn't easy growing anything here in the "Land Down Under" and yet we compete with USA quite well

(June 4, 2013 at 7:26 am)littleendian Wrote:

(June 4, 2013 at 7:17 am)Aractus Wrote: Oh my goodness! "This kind of cruelty"? IT'S DONE FOR THE WELFARE OF THE ANIMAL!

Newspeak if ever there was one, can't you see how absurd this is? Stop producing millions of animals if it requires such traumatic acts to keep them alive because of overbreeding!

It doesn't require "traumatic acts" to keep them alive because of "overbreeding", it requires the "traumatic acts" as you put them for, THE WELFARE OF THE ANIMAL!!

(June 4, 2013 at 7:19 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: You really are stupid ya know?

(June 4, 2013 at 7:19 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: What an idiot!

Insults, right, that'll win this argument for sure! Insult-to-signal ratio continues to deteriorate

(June 4, 2013 at 7:19 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: My vegetable garden THRIVES on COW POO!

Good for you, but it's not necessary, the soil can be kept alive and kicking without any poo if you pay a little attention to what's going on.

(June 4, 2013 at 7:19 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: WHY do you think I am advocating this? You are A PART OF this ecosystem and yet YOU want to set yourself up as judge jury and executioner against the very system that will sustain you vegan/ vegetarian lifestyle choice?

No, my "vegan lifestyle choice" is not sustained by animal agriculture or the wool industry, and that's by definition.

Now that someone posted something with maggots.


How do you 2 feel about the use of insects by humans for food and for medical reasons?

(June 4, 2013 at 7:27 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: ...

Look, I'm sorry this is getting out of hand now and I'm also truly sorry you had such a traumatic experience with a vegan diet, I really am, and it frightens me to the core to think that I could be forced to give this up because of such terrible consequences, so I don't blame you for getting a little personal here. This topic has the tendency to wind people up...

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(June 4, 2013 at 7:30 am)Aractus Wrote: It doesn't require "traumatic acts" to keep them alive because of "overbreeding", it requires the "traumatic acts" as you put them for, THE WELFARE OF THE ANIMAL!!

Fewer happy animals would be preferable over millions of mutilated ones.