I guess everyone was made aware over the news how the Bolivian president Evo Morales was forced to land in Vienna after his plane was denied access to the airspace of several countries.
I found this incident to be rather disturbing. In the past few weeks following the leaks by Snowden, european politicians throughout the continent were quick to condem the US and to demand an explaination for the actions by american security services. Yet a stupid rumor seems to have been enought to cause a diplomatic eclat which will certainly heavyly damage the releationships between European and South American countries, whilest forgetting the plege of demanding answeres from the US.

I am not a big friend of most South American leaders, nore of Snowden, nore do I approve of the actions by the NSA which were reveiled - yet the actions resulting out of the leaks by those involved are a pathetic comedic display.

Humans tend to operate on basic emotional tendencies when the need for rational discourse is most needed. When these humans gather into groups of cabals setting the rules for their respective societies while also trying to maintain their own power, these tendencies are only exacerbated. When these cabals begin butting heads with one another, the shit really hits the fan. Governments shouldn't be expected to display reasonable behavior in times of upset, they are almost guaranteed to tighten in the reigns.

Somebody mentioned on the other forum I'm on that the government intelligence agencies in Europe are most likely doing the same types of surreptitious spying that the NSA has just been called out on, the only thing that really sets the US apart is the unfathomable scale of their peekaboo operations.

(July 3, 2013 at 3:10 pm)Tartarus Sauce Wrote: Somebody mentioned on the other forum I'm on that the government intelligence agencies in Europe are most likely doing the same types of surreptitious spying that the NSA has just been called out on, the only thing that really sets the US apart is the unfathomable scale of their peekaboo operations.

I am not aware of a european goverment actively spying on the goverment and citicens of an allied country without it`s consent.

(July 3, 2013 at 3:13 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote:

(July 3, 2013 at 3:10 pm)Tartarus Sauce Wrote: Somebody mentioned on the other forum I'm on that the government intelligence agencies in Europe are most likely doing the same types of surreptitious spying that the NSA has just been called out on, the only thing that really sets the US apart is the unfathomable scale of their peekaboo operations.

I am not aware of a european goverment actively spying on the goverment and citicens of an allied country without it`s consent.

I wouldn't put it past the MI5...

And the Russian agencies are doing it almost without a doubt.

(July 3, 2013 at 3:13 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: I am not aware of a european goverment actively spying on the goverment and citicens of an allied country without it`s consent.

That's the point, that you are unaware.

(July 3, 2013 at 3:15 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(July 3, 2013 at 3:13 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: I am not aware of a european goverment actively spying on the goverment and citicens of an allied country without it`s consent.

That's the point, that you are unaware.

I get waht you mean

Still, I have a point, when European sovereign countries spy on their population it is the buisness of that countries population to debate that matter and come to a common understanding and solutions.

When a foreign country spies on that countries citizens and goverment - and it is caught doing so - it is the buisness of that foreign country to justify those actions and appologise. Especialy if the country it spied uppon is an ally.

(July 3, 2013 at 3:19 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote:

(July 3, 2013 at 3:15 pm)Faith No More Wrote: That's the point, that you are unaware.

I get waht you mean

Still, I have a point, when European sovereign countries spy on their population it is the buisness of that countries population to debate that matter and come to a common understanding and solutions.

When a foreign country spies on that countries citizens and goverment - and it is caught doing so - it is the buisness of that foreign country to justify those actions and appologise. Especialy if the country it spied uppon is an ally.

Absolutely, I was just pointing out that some of the European governments have likely been doing the same thing, just nowhere near the scale of the US.

Well, I don't know how it works in the EU, but here in the U.S. there is very little transparency in the intelligence community, and the population has no say whatsoever as to how agencies like the C.I.A. operate. They basically operate under an "it's only a crime if you get caught" philosophy, and the public is only aware of what is going on when there is a public snafu or details leak out many years later.

Considering how much the MI5 seems to operate as underhandedly as the C.I.A., it doesn't seem that far fetched that they have a spying operation that is much bigger in scope than you might imagine.

(July 3, 2013 at 3:26 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Well, I don't know how it works in the EU, but here in the U.S. there is very little transparency in the intelligence community, and the population has no say whatsoever as to how agencies like the C.I.A. operate. They basically operate under an "it's only a crime if you get caught" philosophy, and the public is only aware of what is going on when there is a public snafu or details leak out many years later.

Considering how much the MI5 seems to operate as underhandedly as the C.I.A., it doesn't seem that far fetched that they have a spying operation that is much bigger in scope than you might imagine.

That is a myth, european secret services are stricktly bound to the law. Especialy the MI5. If you read through the wiki articles and other articles concerning them, you will notice that there is hardly an action by the MI5 which was not approved by a judge and which was not reveiled to the public. There were actualy cases which were dropped, especialy against IRA members because the MI5 worked outside the boundries of the law. I dont even think that the French have a that active intelligence section and that they leave most work to the police. And in Germany the BND has a really bad reputation for having used former nazis as informants in South America during the 50s and for being unefficiant towards certain threats - so it is under big public pressure to behave well and within the boundries of the constitution and the german press has the reputation of being a rational and vicious machine which jumps reveals almoust every single failure in every single institution.

From what I read in papers, almoust all intelligence resources by european intelligence services are invested into fighting islamism and corporate espionage by China and Russia.

(July 3, 2013 at 3:38 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: That is a myth, european secret services are stricktly bound to the law. Especialy the MI5. If you read through the wiki articles and other articles concerning them, you will notice that there is hardly an action by the MI5 which was not approved by a judge and which was not reveiled to the public.

This makes your country weak. In the coming wars your people will be annihilated. So long, friend Germany.

Thanks for the beer.