(July 18, 2013 at 5:40 pm)A Theist Wrote: Where did I say that racism wasn't relevant? It's especially relevant when you want to dismiss and ignore the 91% black on black murder rate and the disproportionate black on white crime as opposed to the white on black crimes to lynch a half white guy who tried in a court of law and found innocent. That's the significance.

I am not dismissing it, I am questioning it`s relevants concerning the current case.

Can you show that this fact is relevant in the current case?

Or are you simply throing it in here because it is a conservative talking point that has no relevants but is nice and affirming to be repeated?

(July 18, 2013 at 5:30 pm)smax Wrote: So, in your mind, it's okay that he was demanding that you leave because the place wasn't worth hanging around in the first place?

I'm trying to follow your logic here.

So you would have just attacked the dude? He wasn't that big of a guy. Both my friend and I were bigger than him and he was alone. Also he didn't have the gun on him yet. In that case Trayvon and his "homie" would have beaten the guy senseless.

I just don't happen to be a thug.

(July 18, 2013 at 5:30 pm)smax Wrote: I'm not blaming you for leaving, I'm just telling you that not everyone is going to react as you did. In fact, that's how many wars have started: over territory being disputed.

No shit?

*rolls eyes* I think you could have left this paragraph out.

(July 18, 2013 at 5:30 pm)smax Wrote: First of all, "lethal" does not necessarily mean "Sure death". It's generally accepted that lethal is something that will cause great damage and could potentially kill you.

Already covered it right before you posted.

(July 18, 2013 at 5:30 pm)smax Wrote: However, even if you accept only the most extreme definition of the word, we are still talking about someone threatening you with a deadly weapon, which could very easily kill you regardless of the users intent.

Yep. So? Regardless, he didn't threaten to kill anyone.

(July 18, 2013 at 5:30 pm)smax Wrote: Oh, well then I guess it's perfectly okay to threaten or even shoot someone simply because you don't like them exercising their natural right to go wherever they please. They'll probably survive your assualt anyway.

Nope. The guy was a crazy, violent redneck. I try to avoid those types.

They're not a very civilized animal. I have attempted to study them from a distance. It's quite fascinating. Their main food group appears to be Coors Light and they listened to this other redneck named George Strait.

Sometimes I thought I could almost understand the grunts they would make to one another.

(July 18, 2013 at 5:30 pm)smax Wrote: Oh wait, Trayvon didn't survive. We might have to rethink that approach.

Yeah he didn't. He learned the hard way that when you act like Mr Violent Thug sometimes you don't get to grow old.

Look, I think BOTH of the guys were being overly aggressive that night.

Here a couple years back these twin brothers were at a bar, were drunk, and started fucking with these two guys. Knocking beers out of their hands and acting like shit bastards. It breaks out in a full on fight. They kick them out. The twins go out back, the friends go out front. One of the two friends checks for his wallet and it's gone. He assumes one of the twins took it. So he ran around back to confront them. The twins grab him, throw him on the ground, savagely pound on him, and then start kicking the shit out of him.

His buddy comes around back, sees these two guys stomping on his prone friend. So the buddy takes out his pocket knife, rushes them, and puts both the twins in the hospital. One went to the emergency room, the other to the morgue.

Courts ruled that the twins were at fault because they were stomping the guy's buddy, who was laying on the ground, all to shit. The guy had a reasonable expectation that his friend was going to be killed.

It sucks that one of those twins died, right? But when you act aggressively to another person you are ALWAYS running the risk of potential death.

Trayvon thought he was a little 17 year old badass. Those guys die every day. Trayvon isn't special.

[quote='Rahul' pid='479832' dateline='1374184233']

[quote]So you would have just attacked the dude?[/quote]

How did you come up with that?

[quote]He wasn't that big of a guy. Both my friend and I were bigger than him and he was alone. Also he didn't have the gun on him yet. In that case Trayvon and his "homie" would have beaten the guy senseless.[/quote]

All of this is irrelevant. I'm talking about civilized society here, and how people should act in one.

In a civilized society, you don't take a territorial approach to others when you don't own the territory, and you don't play cop when you aren't one.

[quote]I just don't happen to be a thug.[/quote]

But you don't mind being treated like one?

[quote]No shit?

*rolls eyes* I think you could have left this paragraph out.[/quote]

And ignore the Marshall Law-like Society you are proposing?

I think not.

[quote]Yep. So? Regardless, he didn't threaten to kill anyone.[/quote]

I disagree. If someone threatens to shoot me, stab me, run me over, blow me up, etc., etc., I will take their threats as a deadly one.

And, I strongly suspect that I'm in the majority with that position.

[quote]Nope. The guy was a crazy, violent redneck. I try to avoid those types.[/quote]

Well, make up your mind, was the guy justified to question you or not?

[quote]Yeah he didn't. He learned the hard way that when you act like Mr Violent Thug sometimes you don't get to grow old.[/quote]

He's gone now so it really isn't about what "he" learned. But, he did leave behind a society that must cope with the fallout of the events that led to his death.

If we simply accept that his executioner was "justified" to take the law into his own hands, then we invite social developments that simply do not work.

If history has proven anything, it is that people do not like other people, who are just like them, to be too involved in their business. Such social practices have led to many conflicts throughout human history.

Zimmerman crossed that line when he decided to question another individual without the proper authority to do so.



[quote]Here a couple years back these twin brothers were at a bar, were drunk, and started fucking with these two guys. Knocking beers out of their hands and acting like shit bastards. It breaks out in a full on fight. They kick them out. The twins go out back, the friends go out front. One of the two friends checks for his wallet and it's gone. He assumes one of the twins took it. So he ran around back to confront them. The twins grab him, throw him on the ground, savagely pound on him, and then start kicking the shit out of him.

His buddy comes around back, sees these two guys stomping on his prone friend. So the buddy takes out his pocket knife, rushes them, and puts both the twins in the hospital. One went to the emergency room, the other to the morgue.

Courts ruled that the twins were at fault because they were stomping the guy's buddy, who was laying on the ground, all to shit. The guy had a reasonable expectation that his friend was going to be killed.

It sucks that one of those twins died, right? But when you act aggressively to another person you are ALWAYS running the risk of potential death.

Trayvon thought he was a little 17 year old badass. Those guys die every day. Trayvon isn't special.[/quote]

You are making the mistake of assuming that I am picking a side here. I'm not.

Both Trayvon and Zimmerman made mistakes here. Problem is, Zimmerman isn't being held accountable for his mistake, and that sends a terrible message to the rest of the world.

(July 18, 2013 at 6:41 pm)smax Wrote: How did you come up with that?

Because I had roughly three options. 1) Attack him. 2) Ignore him and keep standing there until I got shot. 3)Leave.

I picked option 3. So which do you pick?

Look, let's look at these three stories and compare.

1. Twins and buddies
2. Trayvon and Zimmerman
3. Rahul and Redneck

Let's come up with some colors to symbolize the gradual increase in aggression.

White: Everyone is cool.

Yellow: Someone is being mean, rude, insulting etc to someone. The Law? Nothing illegal about being an asshole.

Orange: Someone lays their hands on someone else like pushing them. Nothing to cause injury but aggressive, mild touching. The Law? Might be considered assault depending on the situation.

Red: Flat out fist fight. No one in fear of dying. Just a fistfight. The Law? Flat out assault. The police will determine who brought it to that level and charge them.

Black: One person is fearing that the other person is going to kill them or someone else. Our nation's laws against murder are no longer valid for someone that takes out the person that reaches level black aggression. The Law? Charges might ramp it up to attempted murder for the aggressor if the person lives.

Twins and buddies. The twins start acting like assholes (yellow) and then start slapping their beers out of their hands (orange). They shouldn't have done that. But they did.

Now the buddies should have walked away. "Fuck you dudes, we're going to the bar next door to enjoy ourselves."

Instead they increased the aggression to level red. Fist fight. This level of aggression was briefly stopped until the one buddy met back up with them out back. Now it should have ended after a good fist fight. But did the twins leave it at that?

No, after the buddy was already on the ground and they had already won they increased the level of aggression. Stomping the shit out of a prone body. They just hit level black.

The other buddy uses deadly force and kills one. The courts let him go.

Do you see this here? At each step someone kept increasing the aggression level. Either side could have stopped increasing that level. But they were all young, dumb, over-testosterone having idiots.

Trayvon and Zimmerman. Zimmerman approaches and questions Trayvon. Level yellow. Trayvon immediately shoots past level orange straight to red. So theyre both at level red now briefly maybe. But the charges would be leveled against Trayvon.

But then Zimmerman goes down.

So Trayvon ramps it up again to level black by straddling his prone body, slamming his head in the concrete and repeatedly hitting him. Pow. Trayvon took a level yellow encounter and shot it up three more levels of aggression. Zimmerman defended himself. Our courts let him go. Because Zimmerman never broke the law. Not at any point. None.

Rahul and Redneck. I'm at level white. Redneck comes up and levels yellow at me (annoying) and threatening level black. Now threatening level black is illegal. I could have reported him. But fuck it, no harm no foul. First time I was in the neighborhood. I had no reason to ever return. So it was meaningless to me.

I can either stand around for level black to come at me, at which point, well I didn't have a gun. So I'd be at his mercy. Or I can increase the aggression. Or I can walk away.

I walked away from the level yellow aggression.

If any one of these dipshits had walked away from the yellow and orange levels no one would have died.

People have level yellowed me hundreds of times. Even once or twice went to level orange maybe. Can't remember. But it's not like they were trying to rob me or kick me out of my own place or something like that. I just roll my eyes and walk away.

Idiots that don't do that sometimes die. Tough shit for them.

(July 18, 2013 at 7:44 pm)Rahul Wrote: Because I had roughly three options. 1) Attack him. 2) Ignore him and keep standing there until I got shot. 3)Leave.

I picked option 3. So which do you pick?

Funny that you don't include the most obvious choice:

4) Report this obviously unstable and uncivilized individual to the authorities for a terrorist threat.

Quote:Look, let's look at these three stories and compare.

1. Twins and buddies
2. Trayvon and Zimmerman
3. Rahul and Redneck

Let's come up with some colors to symbolize the gradual increase in aggression.

White: Everyone is cool.

Yellow: Someone is being mean, rude, insulting etc to someone. The Law? Nothing illegal about being an asshole.

Orange: Someone lays their hands on someone else like pushing them. Nothing to cause injury but aggressive, mild touching. The Law? Might be considered assault depending on the situation.

Red: Flat out fist fight. No one in fear of dying. Just a fistfight. The Law? Flat out assault. The police will determine who brought it to that level and charge them.

Black: One person is fearing that the other person is going to kill them or someone else. Our nation's laws against murder are no longer valid for someone that takes out the person that reaches level black aggression. The Law? Charges might ramp it up to attempted murder for the aggressor if the person lives.

Twins and buddies. The twins start acting like assholes (yellow) and then start slapping their beers out of their hands (orange). They shouldn't have done that. But they did.

Now the buddies should have walked away. "Fuck you dudes, we're going to the bar next door to enjoy ourselves."

Instead they increased the aggression to level red. Fist fight. This level of aggression was briefly stopped until the one buddy met back up with them out back. Now it should have ended after a good fist fight. But did the twins leave it at that?

No, after the buddy was already on the ground and they had already won they increased the level of aggression. Stomping the shit out of a prone body. They just hit level black.

The other buddy uses deadly force and kills one. The courts let him go.

Do you see this here? At each step someone kept increasing the aggression level. Either side could have stopped increasing that level. But they were all young, dumb, over-testosterone having idiots.

Trayvon and Zimmerman. Zimmerman approaches and questions Trayvon. Level yellow. Trayvon immediately shoots past level orange straight to red. So theyre both at level red now briefly maybe. But the charges would be leveled against Trayvon.

But then Zimmerman goes down.

So Trayvon ramps it up again to level black by straddling his prone body, slamming his head in the concrete and repeatedly hitting him. Pow. Trayvon took a level yellow encounter and shot it up three more levels of aggression. Zimmerman defended himself. Our courts let him go. Because Zimmerman never broke the law. Not at any point. None.

Rahul and Redneck. I'm at level white. Redneck comes up and levels yellow at me (annoying) and threatening level black. Now threatening level black is illegal. I could have reported him. But fuck it, no harm no foul. First time I was in the neighborhood. I had no reason to ever return. So it was meaningless to me.

I can either stand around for level black to come at me, at which point, well I didn't have a gun. So I'd be at his mercy. Or I can increase the aggression. Or I can walk away.

I walked away from the level yellow aggression.

If any one of these dipshits had walked away from the yellow and orange levels no one would have died.

People have level yellowed me hundreds of times. Even once or twice went to level orange maybe. Can't remember. But it's not like they were trying to rob me or kick me out of my own place or something like that. I just roll my eyes and walk away.

Idiots that don't do that sometimes die. Tough shit for them.

If everyone accepted your approach, we'd live in a terrible society where we simply allowed people to bully and harrass others simply because they didn't like something they were doing.

Again, the answer isn't to simply fight fire with fire, but to look for ways to extinguish the fire.

You can kid yourself all you want, but you wouldn't like the society that you are suggesting that you are so okay with right now. In that society, anyone could approach you at any time and question what you are doing and why you are doing it. And, if they don't like your answers, they could take aggressive action against you.

Right now you live in a society where you only have to answer to the proper authorities. You can go wherever you want and do whatever you want as long those activities don't violate the rights of others.

What Florida's legal system allowed to go unpunished proposes a very different kind of society.

(July 18, 2013 at 12:43 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Clearly though, Zimmerman did get to the gun first. We have eye-witness testimony that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, so even if it doesn't make sense to you, all the evidence seems to suggest it happened.

FFS, this is like training a cat to play piano.

Zimmerman said that Treyvon saw the gun, and went to grab it (with the intent of using it against him) and that Zimmerman (on his back, apparently semi-conscious from the assault) managed to get the gun first and used it. This is from Zimmerman - and nobody else. What we're supposed to believe is that Treyvon intended to shoot Zimmerman. That is utter bollocks. If Zimmerman was as impaired as he claimed to be, how did he get to the gun before Treyvon (in a position of considerable advantage) not manage to get to it before him? I would suggest that Treyvon never saw the gun and the Zimmerman is a liar. But hey... far be it from you to think something like that, eh?

(July 18, 2013 at 12:43 pm)Tiberius Wrote: 1) Evidence suggests he wasn't followed.
2) Evidence suggests he wasn't ambushed; even the prosecution's witness denied this.
3) Using a gun for self defense is legal in the situation Zimmerman was in.

He left his truck, looking for Treyvon. I don't know what kind of dictionary you're using, but that means that he followed him. Or did he go in a completely random direction and (by utter chance) stumbled upon him? No. He followed him.

I've seen you repeatedly decry the whole "we don't need you to do that" when it was suggested that he had been told not to chase after Treyvon. It's pretty fucking clear that the operator was politely telling Zimmerman to get back into his truck and leave the pursuit to the authorities (who were on their way to the scene). But, no. You'll determine that he was told no such thing... that it wasn't an order (it was a heavy suggestion) and that everything Zimmerman did was reasonable.

Was it fuck. He acted like a moron.

(July 18, 2013 at 12:43 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Trayvon was a young African American, and according to Zimmerman, he was looking into people's houses.

From memory, he said no such thing during his conversation with the 911 operator. Happy to be proven wrong on that if you can link the audio and time-stamp. If he said that after the event, then I couldn't give a flying fuck. As I've repeatedly said, Zimmerman shouldn't be trusted wrt anything that was said after the event... because he was looking out for numero uno.

Seriously, Tiberius, next time there's a racially-motivated killing, you will be a shoe-in for jury service because you're so obviously race-neutral in all of this.

(July 14, 2013 at 10:35 am)Psykhronic Wrote:

(July 14, 2013 at 10:22 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Manslaughter wouldn't really make much sense, considering he had a gun. If he went after him with a gun, he obviously had some intention to shoot the kid right from the off. That makes it premeditated murder.

He had a gun because of how seriously he took his position as a neighborhood watch dude, and it's America - people walk around armed. You can shoot someone in Florida with the stand your ground law and I do not believe it states the "attacker" has to be armed as well. Not saying it's right, but that's what the jury was dealing with.

I live about 15 minutes from where all of this went down and I have a conceal weapon carry permit. In this state stand your ground simply says if you feel your life is threatened, the life of another is threatened, in a place where you legally have a right to be then you can shoot to kill an aggressor. When treyvon turn on George, and started the ground and pound, (a litteral mixed martial arts move) treyvon forfeited his life to George.

That is why he was found not guilty. No one in this state has the right to beat another person past the point where he can defend himself just because he is being followed. George was past that point when he was heard screaming for help. To which no one responded. That is why we have that law. (Not stand your ground as it does not pertain to this situation as treyvon was in a full mounted position pounding George's face in and smashing his skull into the street. In essence he had no where to go. This was a standard self defense case as He was backed into a situation with no way out except through treyvon's mercy which was nonexistent because again George was heard screaming for help and treyvon escalated his assault by smashing his head into the pavement.) George did what anyone would have done if placed on the ground with a man beating the life out of them, who would not stop and with no other help to be found.

---

(July 18, 2013 at 1:58 am)smax Wrote: I'm much more disappointed in Florida law than I am Zimmerman, although I'm certainly very disappointed with him.

Zimmerman is not a cop, and had no business confronting ANYONE about ANYTHING. In the very least, he should have been punished for that.

As a member of the Neighborhood Watch, Zimmerman needed only report suspicious behaviour and then leave it to the authorities to take the appropriate course of action. Because he played cop, instead, a confrontation developed and a man lost his life.

Florida's legal system failed to do something about that, and because of that, it's obviously in need of serious reform.

That's kinda what the neighborhood watch is smoothie, it's elected neighbors who have been voted by a given neighborhood to play cop for them without any pay. They check doors and generally look out for things or people who do not belong, then report them. George was elected for his community. He was doing what his neighbors wanted him to do.

That does not give anyone else the right to beat him mercilessly because they physically can.

---

(July 18, 2013 at 1:58 am)smax Wrote: I'm much more disappointed in Florida law than I am Zimmerman, although I'm certainly very disappointed with him.

Zimmerman is not a cop, and had no business confronting ANYONE about ANYTHING. In the very least, he should have been punished for that.

As a member of the Neighborhood Watch, Zimmerman needed only report suspicious behaviour and then leave it to the authorities to take the appropriate course of action. Because he played cop, instead, a confrontation developed and a man lost his life.

Florida's legal system failed to do something about that, and because of that, it's obviously in need of serious reform.

That's kinda what the neighborhood watch is smoothie, it's elected neighbors who have been voted by a given neighborhood to play cop for them without any pay. They check doors and generally look out for things or people who do not belong, then report them. George was elected for his community. He was doing what his neighbors wanted him to do.

That does not give anyone else the right to beat him mercilessly because they physically can.

---

(July 18, 2013 at 12:59 pm)smax Wrote:

(July 18, 2013 at 12:43 pm)Rahul Wrote: I don't mind my neighbors asking me questions. We're a friendly bunch down here in Texas for the most part. I chat frequently with most of my neighbors. And I wave at all of them when I see them.

No matter what though, even if a stranger walked up to me and barked at me, the LAST thing I'm going to do is physically assault them.

I don't know about Florida, but I live in Texas. Assaulting strangers before you make sure they aren't carrying a concealed weapon is very likely to be a death sentence on the attacker.

Whether or not the guy bothering you is the neighborhood watch.

I doubt very much that you would like it if a perfect stranger came up to you and started asking questions and treating you as if you are a likely suspect in a crime.

If you are okay with that, more power to you.

Personally, I don't like people assuming I have bad intentions, and I like being questioned along those lines even less. However, if it's a police officer, I'll accept that he has a job to do.

All treyvon's had to do is leave. Pride is what made him 'stand his ground' and attack George.

---

(July 18, 2013 at 3:30 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: I have no problem with him defending himself against a possible deadly assault (getting his head rammed into the concrete). The only thing I have a problem with is Zimmerman putting himself into that situation in the first place. While it wasn't illegal to follow Martin or even confront him as to his actions, it probably wasn't the smartest thing to do. But even then, there was and is no reason to throw him in jail. The only reason at all this ever went to trial was because of political pressure.

When this first happened he was questioned and released. It wasn't till the NAACP got involve did the sand ford police chief was made to retire and George got arrested.

---

One other quick thing that has already been said, George is not white. He is of a mixed race. Is tiger woods Thai? Is Obama white? I am also of a mixed race and do get angry when I am lumped in with Koreans or with whites. Because growing up in this area neither Koreans nor white people would see me or accept me as Korean nor white. I was reminded my whole life that I was neither by both sides, and if George grew up 20 mins from me then I am sure he was reminded of that as well.

The only time I was categorized as being one or the other was when someone I knew wanted to disparage the other race. That is what real racism is. It is over looking the indivisual to classify him/her in a negative way so as to present their own race or racial views is a better light.

The real racists are the assholes who see Obama and tiger as black or George or myself as white or Hispanic even after they were informed of our biracial nature, just so they can identify or easily prove a point.

(July 18, 2013 at 11:03 pm)Red Celt Wrote: FFS, this is like training a cat to play piano.

Zimmerman said that Treyvon saw the gun, and went to grab it (with the intent of using it against him) and that Zimmerman (on his back, apparently semi-conscious from the assault) managed to get the gun first and used it. This is from Zimmerman - and nobody else. What we're supposed to believe is that Treyvon intended to shoot Zimmerman. That is utter bollocks. If Zimmerman was as impaired as he claimed to be, how did he get to the gun before Treyvon (in a position of considerable advantage) not manage to get to it before him? I would suggest that Treyvon never saw the gun and the Zimmerman is a liar. But hey... far be it from you to think something like that, eh?

You are ignoring the main point. It doesn't matter the logistics of the thing. We can only go on the facts, and we have eye-witness testimony to confirm that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. Whether Trayvon saw the gun and went for it is irrelevant. Given the beating that Zimmerman was undergoing, he was still within his rights to respond with deadly force.

(July 18, 2013 at 12:43 pm)Tiberius Wrote: He left his truck, looking for Treyvon. I don't know what kind of dictionary you're using, but that means that he followed him. Or did he go in a completely random direction and (by utter chance) stumbled upon him? No. He followed him.

Let me clarify; he initially started following Trayvon after he lost sight of him. The police dispatcher then said they didn't need him to do that. Zimmerman then, by all accounts, started walking back to his car looking for a place to meet the police. Trayvon then attacked Zimmerman.

Look at a map of the distance between Zimmerman's car and the place where Trayvon was found. It does not suggest that Zimmerman was following Trayvon at the time of the attack.

Quote:I've seen you repeatedly decry the whole "we don't need you to do that" when it was suggested that he had been told not to chase after Treyvon. It's pretty fucking clear that the operator was politely telling Zimmerman to get back into his truck and leave the pursuit to the authorities (who were on their way to the scene). But, no. You'll determine that he was told no such thing... that it wasn't an order (it was a heavy suggestion) and that everything Zimmerman did was reasonable.

The police dispatcher testified that it was not an order, because as a matter of policy, they do not give out orders over the phone. It is you who is repeatedly ignoring this. Additionally, it is not illegal to follow someone, especially if you think they are up to no good, as I have also mentioned. So yes, following someone if you think they are breaking the law, or about to break the law, is a reasonable course of action.

(July 18, 2013 at 12:43 pm)Tiberius Wrote: From memory, he said no such thing during his conversation with the 911 operator. Happy to be proven wrong on that if you can link the audio and time-stamp. If he said that after the event, then I couldn't give a flying fuck. As I've repeatedly said, Zimmerman shouldn't be trusted wrt anything that was said after the event... because he was looking out for numero uno.

He said it after the phone call in testimony to the police if I recall correctly. In the phone call, he mentioned that Trayvon was walking around in the rain, looking around. Previously he had mentioned break-ins, so I'd have thought the implication of "looking around" was clear.

Quote:Seriously, Tiberius, next time there's a racially-motivated killing, you will be a shoe-in for jury service because you're so obviously race-neutral in all of this.

Ah, good. I was wondering when you'd have to resort to personal attacks to bolster your argument rather than logic. Well done.

There is no evidence this was a racially motivating killing. I challenge you to provide one piece of evidence that Zimmerman killed Trayvon "because he was black". I, on the other hand, have plenty of evidence to suggest it wasn't a racially motivated killing. The main evidence is the eye-witness testimony that suggests Trayvon was attacking Zimmerman (so the killing was self-defense), and of course the character of Zimmerman himself; a man who not only mentored African American kids, but was one of the only people who stuck up for a homeless African American man who was being beaten by the police.

That certainly sounds like one bigoted racist motherfucker. </sarcasm>

Interesting take on the situation, Tiberius. Now try matching your account with the facts. In particular, try and match up what you said happened with the timing of the incidents that night.

This is a worthwhile breakdown of the timings. At the end of which, there is a suggested scenario which connects all known facts.





Then try and tell everyone that Zimmerman was being honest, and didn't pick on an innocent teenager before killing him when his unwarranted and unjustified "citizen's arrest" went pear-shaped.

Or, y'know, you can keep sticking up for the murderer.

At no point does the law allow someone being 'picked on' to beat someone past the point where he can actively defend himself. No one has that right not even in the ring where treyvon's tactics are expected and encouraged. Once you move past the point where you opponent is able to defend himself in a fight then you move in the realm of threating someone's life. George did mechanically (with a gun) what treyvon's was doing with his mma tactics and his fists. To condemn George is to first condemn treyvon, because it was treyvon who escalitated this situation to a life and death senerio.

Again no one has the right to escalitate a simple altercation or even a fist fight (where both parties have decided to engage each other and both parties can attack and defend themselves) but once one party has been injured or can no longer fight then to continue on becomes a threat to another mans life.

Treyvon should have stopped when Zimmerman first hit the ground. But he didnt. He decided to exploit George's inability to stand toe to toe with him,performed a full mount and started to beat George in the face and head, because George would not pass out he began to slam his head into the pavement. All this because George "followed him?" If all treyvon wanted to do is go home then all was needed was a swift kick in the nuts to George and he could have been on his way. Treyvon was out to prove himself in a bad way. How he dealt with George was the proof of that. George finished what treyvon started.