(August 9, 2013 at 1:41 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote:

(August 9, 2013 at 1:36 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Nature is God.

I don't need to show that. The question is superfluous. No believer needs to prove anything to himself in those terms, or his faith is unfounded/ rather his belief is based upon absolute knowledge. That isn't religious faith.

Faith, in the Christian tradition, is acting upon information that you trust to be true. All three conditions are essential. Information, trust and action.

So God is natural?

Bravo to you both. I quite like this result.

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(August 9, 2013 at 1:46 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(August 9, 2013 at 1:36 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Nature is God.

Then your god is not a conscious being, has no mind, and thus could not create anything purposefully. You have a useless god concept.

We already have a word for it, and that word is nature. Why call it god?
that, again? Seriously.

I suspect it boils down to whether you see the universe/nature as endowed with teleology or not. If you think we have gotten to the point we are through some intentionality, there is room for god. Personally, I doubt that, but I see no contradiction in affirming it either. The evidence is inconclusive for either perspective. So at the level of hunches, to each his own. (Nothing rides on it so far as I can tell.)

(August 9, 2013 at 2:10 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(August 9, 2013 at 1:44 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Is Jesus nature also, then?

Don't you start!

If Allah created everything, isn't Allah also in nature? Wouldn't nature be made of the substance that created it? Or do you believe that creation and Allah are separate?

If I make a car out of raw materials, am I the car?

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This line of reasoning also begs the question of if God created Nature, and Nature is God, then did God create himself?

(August 9, 2013 at 2:21 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote:

(August 9, 2013 at 2:10 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Don't you start!

If Allah created everything, isn't Allah also in nature? Wouldn't nature be made of the substance that created it? Or do you believe that creation and Allah are separate?

If I make a car out of raw materials, am I the car?

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This line of reasoning also begs the question of if God created Nature, and Nature is God, then did God create himself?

That depends. Did you use parts fashioned from your own body or bits from your children?

(August 9, 2013 at 2:24 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(August 9, 2013 at 2:21 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: If I make a car out of raw materials, am I the car?

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This line of reasoning also begs the question of if God created Nature, and Nature is God, then did God create himself?

That depends. Did you use parts fashioned from your own body or bits from your children?

Well now we're back to having to define God.

Well 'God' is the first cause. The prime mover. He is potentiality. Everything that started was from him, otherwise we are saying something preceeds God, which then disproves God.

So everything is fashioned from his own body parts.

(August 9, 2013 at 3:47 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Well 'God' is the first cause. The prime mover. He is potentiality. Everything that started was from him, otherwise we are saying something preceeds God, which then disproves God.

So everything is fashioned from his own body parts.

No Frodo, please don't. Are you really about to start making claims of Creation Ex Nihilo. Really dude? Please...Just don't.

Ex Deo, rather?...huh?

(August 9, 2013 at 1:36 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Nature is God.

I don't need to show that. The question is superfluous. No believer needs to prove anything to himself in those terms, or his faith is unfounded/ rather his belief is based upon absolute knowledge. That isn't religious faith.

Whoa.. What Bible are you reading? Nature is not God - God designed nature. According to the Bible, anyway.

And actually, the Bible teaches that we should test and approve our faith, otherwise it really is unfounded. 'Religious faith' is never commended in the Bible.. in fact, Jesus condemned the Pharisees for it, because it is selfish, manipulative, and ignorant, and it leads others away from God.

I'm just pointing this out because your status does say your Christian, and without the Bible as a foundation Christianity crumbles.

EDIT: According to the Bible, 'religious faith' as you are defining it is actually in opposition to God. He would rather someone didn't claim to know God than claim so under false pretense

You're making the same point as me Locke, you just didn't work that out yet.

Are you condemning the 'religious' part of faith? Because I'm with you there. Buit what has that to do with what I'm saying, other than show your lack of understanding of what we're talking about?

You seem to have a problem with your own concept of knowledge, which I see you struggling to align with what is commonly accepted. I think that's where your confusion arises.

/edit

I was going to say... atheists grab your popcorn!

Now I know what voyeurism is.