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Hi everybody. Here I am again with a new post. This post doesn’t consist any question related to theism or atheism rather it will highlight few aspects how we live our lives.
We get birth not because we have chosen it. A couple who start living in married life don’t have any idea whether it will get male child or female child or how he/she would look like.
Similarly, we live our lives in a fashion that when we are children we depend on our parents and when we are old we depend on our children or younger ones. Again, at the end of our lives we die not by our choice. Here you may say what suicide is. For me suicide is circumstances when someone left with no other choice then to kill himself. Those circumstances are not the choice of the person who commits suicide.
Nevertheless, there is a middle part of our lives where we live somewhat independent life in a style we chose. Even in this middle part, we are not totally independent beings. We depend upon our jobs, on our bosses, on our political leaders, on our workers or labour and other influential people or groups in our communities. We are slaves of each other. This is because we are weak enough to work out every requirement of our individual lives by our own selves. We cannot be farmer, tailor, Shoemaker, cook, doctor, teacher, etc., all in one time. We cannot live without using services of other members in our communities. In short, we are dependent on our societies and as a whole; we are dependent on other human beings.
Now after clarifying these limitations of our lives I jump over to the concept of pleasure and joy. We have our bodies, which have sensation of pain and pleasure in a physical way, and these senses generate our good or bad feelings. From where life comes into our bodies and when we die where it goes. It’s an absolute riddle.
We have senses of pain and pleasure yet we don’t know exactly what they are. We don’t like pain and we like pleasure that’s all we know. Science is so feeble that it can’t even give explanation to our different feelings like what is love and what is hate. Although every one of us experiencing in our daily lives the pleasure of love yet there is no tool that can prove scientifically what is love. If you say, “I love you” and your listener response “prove it” that makes you hang in the middle of air as you don’t know what to do next because you are a believer of science and science has no tools to help you out in this case.
There is a wish in every person to be respectful. If you are, a respectful man then people believes in your words without asking any proves. This helps you to achieve your targets with ease. That is why a religious leader or a secular politician tries to play with the psychology of his followers by giving example of lives scientifically unproven concepts, which appear in human feelings but they are not there in science.
In short, there is no way to experience feelings of others but you have a choice to believe or reject what other person has told you about his feelings based on your judgements and analyses.
Coming back to the topic of pleasure, the act of having pleasure have different side effects. These side effects can be destructive or constructive. There our activities that you call creative and destructive. A person gets involved in some kind of creative or destructive activity to have pleasure or satisfaction. In fact, in a community implementation of laws is to control activities of pleasure seekers to protect other members of the community from a possible harm.
Hitler is an example of destruction. He enjoyed his military superiority and he used all of his possibilities to have highest level of pleasure what he could get. I don’t have to tell what were the consequences.
Beethoven, Leonardo Da Vinci, Shakespeare are few names who enjoyed creating art. Their activities brought pleasing aftereffects not only for themselves but also for their community members and for all of humanity.
Hitler is an extreme example of destructive pleasure. Man has nature that he enjoys giving pain to others. For instance, if I know, you love your mother more than any person and if I am a leg-puller then for sure I talk rude about your mother with intention to make you miserable. All these kinds of people are Hitler’s but at a relatively small scale.
People in this world lives with different ideologies. Everyone believes in something and loves something or someone. Everyone like pleasure and everyone hate pain and disgust. In general, normal people live peacefully with their ideologies, beliefs, religions. This is also a fact that not everybody is equal. Someone has more power to analyse things, someone is weaker physically, someone lives in environment where he cannot do much for his own welfare etc. But everyone is equal in a moral sense. A rich man has no right to treat a poor with bad manners. Likewise, a literate man has no right to laugh at illiterate man and make fun of his ideology based on discrimination. We can give reason to each other to convey our thoughts but we are no one to enforce our opinions over others because we like to do so for the sake of our joy.
The basic purpose of religion and law is to provide boundaries to human activities in order to keep them peaceful with each other. If some religion or ideology provoke it’s followers to feel superior over others that religion or ideology becomes the basis of human agonies. Man is not capable of comprehending every aspect of his own life. Without proper guidance, he may easily be trapped into false ideas. The problem here is how should we reform which instructions or laws are correct and which are not. For that, we should use our intellect that had been given by nature to us. We should study, compere, and analyse different laws simultaneously to come up with some opinion. We have to be sincere in our feelings while studying laws or instructions so that no personal preference over rule anything.
It is very easy to criticise or blame any ideology simply based on first impressions that we have about it. We don’t want to put efforts to learn the truth behind the scenes because we feel lazy. Laziness is another form of pleasure. It is this laziness that keeps us away from our learning process. This laziness also causes hatred, jealousy, vice, etc., when we see others as well-being compare to us. A lazy man don’t want to work but want to have everything and this attitude provoke him to use dangerous shortcuts for the satisfaction of pleasure requirements.
So I invite you all weather theist or atheist to have a proper study of each other’s ideology and religion before giving rash comments simply for the sake of causing bad feelings to each other. Tolerance and patience are your best friends.
What a shitload of crap.
Yes, a couple can have some idea whether they'd have a boy or a girl and what they'd look like.
No, we do not have to depend on our children when we grow old.
Yes, suicide can occur when there are other choices available.
No, dependence on society does not make us slaves.
Yes, we can live without using services of other members of society - its just easier not to.
No, our being alive is not an absolute riddle. Existence of life - from cellular level to us - is very well understood and explained.
Yes, science can and does give explanation of our feelings or pleasure and pain, of love and hate - and saying that it cannot is pure ignorance.
Yes, I can prove to my girlfriend that I love her - by dropping my pants.
No, being respected does not mean people would or should accept what you say without proof.
The only way religious leaders or politicians can play on their followers' psychology by appealing to "scientifically unproven concepts" is if those followers are scientifically illiterate and have no idea whether those concepts are scientifically unproven.
Yes, there is a way to fell what others feel - its called having empathy.
Your ideas regarding pleasure and suffering are utterly ridiculous. The means of achieving pleasure and joy are not arbitrary or irrational. Specifically, the worldview or the ideology you hold does play a significant role in what would give you joy.
No, everyone if not equal in moral sense - context matters.
A rich man has every right to treat the poor one with bad manner and a literate man has every right to laugh and make fun of the illiterate one. Its called the right to free-speech.
All ideologies give its followers a reason to feel superior to other - that's why people adopt ideologies. Feeling superior is fun. It becomes a basis for human agonies only if that superiority is illusory.
Yes, man is capable of comprehending every aspect of his life.
Any reformation would require an ideology behind it.
And we don't need to study any and every religion or ideology deeply, given that they are so patently ridiculous at the first impression.
August 25, 2013 at 12:40 pm (This post was last modified: August 25, 2013 at 1:15 pm by freedomfromforum.)
(May 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Harris Wrote: Science is so feeble that it can’t even give explanation to our different feelings like what is love and what is hate.
(May 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Harris Wrote: So I invite you all weather theist or atheist to have a proper study of each other’s ideology and religion before giving rash comments simply for the sake of causing bad feelings to each other. Tolerance and patience are your best friends.
I agree with this statement with the
exception of the bold word.
(bold mine)
August 25, 2013 at 7:07 pm (This post was last modified: August 25, 2013 at 7:21 pm by Harris.)
(August 24, 2013 at 2:35 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Some people like pain and find it pleasurable...
Hi Paulpablo,
Thank you for giving very thought provoking comments. It is good to know that you support your arguments and comments with references. Normally, people simply expose their likeness or dislikes without proper reasoning. In our normal lives, this behaviour is acceptable but in forums, like this, people should support their arguments and reasoning with supportive material.
Coming to your point
“Some people like pain and find it pleasurable…”
Indeed, there are exceptional cases in human societies where pain is the mean of pleasure however, that was not point of my reasoning. What I stressed upon was:
Why we feel the pleasure and pain in our bodies? In other words, what makes us feel the physical sensations or what is sensation itself?
The same goes to love and other human emotions. Primarily love starts with the physical sensations in our bodies. When I see a beautiful flower, an innocent toddler, or a pretty face of a young woman my sensation starts with my physical vision. Light photons when react with the retina of my eyes that retina produces a map of incoming photons, and convert them to a nerval stimuli. It is the sense of my vision that provokes further feelings in me. Likewise, when sound waves of some beautiful melody hit my ears only then I have sensation of a harmony and that causes further development in my feelings and emotions.
All intellectuals have agreed that human life is a compound of
1. Physical body
2. Energy (life) that causes body to perform different physical acts and
3. Self-consciousness
Science tackled with the first two parameters up to a limited extent but severely failed to give any explanation to the self-consciousness. All human feelings and emotions are entangled with this self-consciousness. Physical body only functions as a means of transport to bring different sensations to our self-consciousness. Science fails to explain self-consciousness and with that automatically fails to explain different human emotions. Science may give details on different procedures of chemical reactions and neural activities within our brains but it can’t explicate sensation.
It is this self-consciousness that experience perceptual experiences, such as tastings and seeing; bodily-sensational experiences, such as those of pains, tickles and itches; imaginative experiences, such as those of one’s own actions or perceptions; and streams of thought, as in the experience of thinking ‘in words’ or ‘in images’.
Phenomenally conscious experiences have been argued to be nonphysical, or at least inexplicable in the manner of other physical entities. Several such arguments allege that phenomenal experience is ‘subjective’; that understanding some experiences requires undergoing them (or their components). The claim is that any objective physical science would leave an ‘explanatory gap’, failing to describe what it is like to have a particular experience and failing to explain why there are phenomenal experiences at all.
Now philosophers attempted to explain this self-consciousness but they also find themselves limited due their dependability over human thoughts. Means, our imaginations work based on the knowledge of physical senses and our emotional experiences. Things, which transcend knowledge and emotional experiences, have no place in our thoughts. However, there are certain things that give us experiential clues about their existence but we have no other means to dig more about those clues. We don’t have any means to see them with our physical eyes or have a physical experience but those things are part of our bodies and we experience non-physical and non-explicable phenomenon within our bodies. It is this self-consciousness to which philosophers has given names like “I”, “Ego”, “Dasein”, “Being”, “Self”, etc. whereas Religions named it “Soul” or “Spirit”.
Science failed to show any pathway to self-consciousness but philosophy has gone a step ahead and proved the existence of self-consciousness. However, philosophy also failed to give comprehensive explanation due to certain limitations. The only school of thought, which gives precise meanings of “Self or Soul”, is the Religion. The problem with Religion is that it does give the meaning of Spirit but without further elaborations. Religion asks for faith.
I am pleased that you have quoted several Ayat (verses) from Quran to give weight in your reasoning.
In order to understand these Ayat you should have some basic knowledge on fundamental ideology of Islamic Theology.
You should have some background why Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and all other Semitic prophets were counted as most honourable people in the world. What those prophets have taught their followers about human life? Why sincere followers of those Prophets are also counted as the best people? Who are in fact disbelievers? Why disbelievers are hated people according to divine scripture? Why Quran ask to use logic and reason? Etc.
It is a huge topic but I will try to elaborate concisely. If something is not clear or you feel something is missing then don’t hesitate to ask. Due to the restrictions of this forum I am writing only most important points in short.
If you study life of different Prophets, you will find few things in common in their teachings:
1. God is the creator and owner of everything that exist
2. Fear God. He hates human Arrogance and love human Humbleness
3. There is life after death and every person would be accountable for his/her worldly deeds
Keep these points at the back of your mind and read the following text.
Point 1.
Today scientists and philosophers, whether they belong to theist or atheist schools of thoughts, agrees that within or outside the universe there is nothing so called “Nothingness”. Almost everyone now agrees that there is nothing in the universe, which comes out of “Nothingness” as “Nothingness” simply doesn’t exist. Now if there is “No Nothingness” then from where the roots of this universe grew? Why there is a balance in the universe, why not a chaos? Things like Chance has least value scientifically, logically, rationally, and empirically in all aspects of human understanding. CHANCE sparkles mostly in the vicinity of human desires.
Theist uses the word God and simplifies his task to explain this “No Nothingness”. However, atheist finds it hard to give explanation to this “No Nothingness” and come up with different theories and models. Like multiverse model, inflationary model, string theory, etc. but all these hypotheses are highly speculative scientifically. Before atheist argued that universe exists from eternity, will exist up to eternity but scientific facts force him to accept that universe was not eternal, and will not be eternal. Now atheist doesn’t argue against the origin of universe but in parallel he has no logical explanation on what caused this universe if there is no Super Intelligent Being, “God”.
Another thing, which astounds all scientists and philosophers, are the subjects of Grand Design and Supernatural Balance in the universe. Universe is a place of order, balance, and symmetry. Think of the earth if it moves only 1 cm towards or away from the sun, this short deviation from its path becomes a threat to life on earth. Look at the human body how accurate and perfectly balanced functions are happening within it without our own incentives. Simply look at the function of genes and that alone gives you surprises after surprises.
By words, one can deny the existence of God but no one can explain how this grand design and fine-tuning is running on its own. It is a laughable joke for us if someone says his wristwatch caused by some desert as a matter of chance and it is running precisely by its own without the need of operator. However, we don’t laugh when we say this humongous and intricate universe caused by itself as a matter of chance and it is running super precisely by its own.
Verily! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, and the ships which sail through the sea with that which is of use to mankind, and the water which Allah sends down from the sky and makes the earth alive therewith after its death, and the moving (living) creatures of all kinds that He has scattered therein, and in the veering of winds and clouds which are held between the sky and the earth, are indeed Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs, etc.) for people of understanding.
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 164-
Al Quran
Point 2.
Classical utilitarians argued that human beings care about only two things: getting pleasure and avoiding pain. The best life must therefore be the one with the greatest balance of pleasure over pain. Others claim that the goodness of your life is a function of how many of your desires are satisfied and the strength of those desires. But the content of your desires and their strength may be determined in unfortunate ways by the limitations of your knowledge or imagination, and this may lead you to adopt an idealized version of this account and bring you to the risk of being arrogant.
When the main faculties of appetite, anger and intellect are moderate, harmonious and well-balanced, then we find the virtues of temperance, courage, wisdom and justice. In reality, however, there is excess or deficiency in each faculty, and so we find various vicious characteristics. The fundamental cause for all this is love of the world.
Pain and pleasure is so dominant over human conscience that all human activities circulate around the impressions of pain and pleasure only. People like pleasure so much that many time pleasure seekers jumps over the boundary of morals and ethics. In order to control harmful action concept of punishment evolved.
However, history is evident that the concept of punishment is not for everyone. Where excessive powers to certain individuals are necessary in order to keep balance in a society the side effects of it comes in form of promotions of arrogance and producing tyrant rulers. Unfortunately, tyrant ruler has no fear of punishment as psychologically he is under impression that all the power to punish and reward belongs to him. For the control of such characters, the fear of God becomes crucial. If such fear doesn’t exist in the society then unjust acts prevail and slowly make every individual slave of the ruler whether directly or indirectly. It is the fear of God that keeps powerful people from being tyrant and general people from being dishonest.
Arrogance mainly comes from erroneous views of self. Rather than indulge in egoistic fantasies, one ought to rely on the power and grace of Supreme Master who designed and balanced this unfathomable universe with justice and wisdom (see point 1).
Prophets taught humbleness for the wellbeing of a society. This humbleness not only generate wisdom among people but also causes orderliness that consists of social distinctions or divisions in various kinds of human relationships, namely, the distinctions between father and son, the eminent and the humble, the elder and the younger, and the rich and the poor, members of society. The respect of others, which is the foundation of a wellbeing society, based on humble character of its members.
All Semitic Prophets were the great example of humbleness and piety. They had shown great living models of how a person can be gentle with helpless and needy people and in parallel what courage and power he may has to crash himself in the armies of tyrant rulers. All Prophets and their sincere followers are the best men in entire human race. An Arrogant man cannot be equal to a humble person. Arrogant man don’t care for human values whereas humble man follows all moral laws and abide by them even if he has to sacrifice for the welfare of his society. A humble man has a faith of God and it is this faith, which makes him gentle. Without having fear of God, a person is at a risk to adopt an arrogant and mean character.
The Ayat you have quoted from Quran represent all humble people, whether they were prophets or they are common and general people, to be the best of all people. Likewise, the law that teaches equality in human rights is the best of all laws. On the contrary, people who spend their lives by following their desires without any care to moral and human values are the worst of all people.
Don’t think if a person is a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Polytheist, Atheist or whatever would get divine salvation based on what religious label he wears over his forehead. Everyone would be accountable for his/her deeds. A Muslim can also be in Hell Fire if he won’t follow the Divine Law and spread mischief in a society.
"And swell not thy cheek (for pride) at men, nor walk in insolence through the earth; for Allah loveth not any arrogant boaster.
Luqman (31)
-Verse 18-
We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 87-
Point 3.
Not far back in the human history, we have seen a great example of arrogant man. Adolf Hitler. The effects of his endeavours resonate even today. I brought Hitler in this point to elucidate the concept of justice.
Because of Hitler’s arrogance, more than 10,000,000 people have lost their lives. Unknown number of people lived rest of their lives as invalids and uncountable children lived their young days as orphans. Normal people suffer with lack of food, medicine and other common requirements of life.
Suppose if at the end of Second World War Hitler was captured and brought to some Jewish court, what in your opinion might be the most horrendous punishment that Hitler could get? Human body is weak enough and can’t afford physical pain beyond a certain limit. So do you think One Capital Punishment for Hitler would be the answer to all the lives he ruined? Do you call it justice?
We know that in every culture, there are arrogant people who are living lustful lives and there are humble people who live quietly with humbleness who don’t even expose if they are going through some sufferings. Do you think that people who are clever in doing crime and living their lives in their dream worlds and without having any fear to be caught and punished are successful people and people who are facing sufferings and yet they are humble with their fellow people are donkeys?
Tyrants and criminals are using justice for the fulfilment of their immoral desires. Leaders are creating laws based on their immodest and mean requirements to make their lives pleasurable up to the maximum possible level.
Logically, without God there is a big vacuum in the model of human Justice. If Law of Allah prevails only then there would be a true justice in the world.
Unfortunately, in the world I can’t show you a real model of Islamic society. Many Muslim countries are also under heavy influence of materialism.
For example:
Why rape is common in the west why not in Saudi Arabia? Because Saudi Arabia has implemented Shariah Law for Rapist and that is a capital punishment. If you imply this law in the west then do you think rape cases would increase or decrease? I say they will totally disappear only after few people will get punishment.
It is only faith in God, faith in resurrection, and faith in the Day of Judgment, which gives support and power to good and humble people who are living their lives in sufferings and needs yet they are satisfied and happy as for them this life is not the end of journey.
Moses said: "I have indeed called upon my Lord and your Lord (for protection) from every arrogant one who believes not in the Day of Account!"
Al Mu'min (40)
-Verse 27-
It is Allah Who sends forth the Winds, so that they raise up the Clouds, and We drive them to a land that is dead, and revive the earth therewith after its death: even so (will be) the Resurrection!
Faathir (35)
-Verse 9-
Ok let me ask you a few questions then just to clear things up.
You say any religion that makes people feel superior to others is responsible for human anguish? I think that's what you were saying.
Ok so let me show you this verse once more.
Quote:"O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.
I'm sure you see yourself as a follower of Jesus, is that correct?
Do you believe in what the quran is saying here or is this a bad translation?
I am a disbeliever, do you believe you are superior to me until the day of resurrection?
I can't see how your answer could be no.
2nd question, do you believe the religion you follow (Islam) is superior over all religions?
Quote:It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).
Again, there seems to be only 3 options,
1 you don't believe the quran is true,
2 you think both these translations are wrong,
3 you do believe Islam is superior and that you are superior to people who disbelieve until the day of resurrection.
If I'm missing an option out please let me know.
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
August 26, 2013 at 1:09 pm (This post was last modified: August 26, 2013 at 1:12 pm by Harris.)
(August 25, 2013 at 7:19 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Ok let me ask you a few questions then just to clear things up.
You say any religion that makes people feel superior to others is responsible for human anguish. I think that's what you were saying.
Hi Paulpablo,
You are spot-on, this is what I wrote:
“If some religion or ideology provoke it’s followers to feel superior over others that religion or ideology becomes the basis of human agonies.”
I wrote that not by mistake.
Quote:Ok so let me show you this verse once more.
Quote:"O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection"
I'm sure you see yourself as a follower of Jesus, is that correct?
Do you believe in what the quran is saying here or is this a bad translation?
I am a disbeliever, do you believe you are superior to me until the day of resurrection?
I can't see how your answer could be no.
1. You had not quoted full Ayet which is:
“Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.”
Ali Imran (3)
-Verse 55-
I quoted from the translation of Yusuf Ali. I made the portion of this Ayet Bold in which you are most interested. Yes, you are correct these are the words of Quran.
2. I don’t know to which category of disbelievers you belongs to:
a. You open your eyes in a disbelieving family that is the reason you are disbeliever
b. You saw evil acts of religious crooks and that makes you a disbeliever
c. You can’t swallow natural disasters in which innocent people face great sufferings
d. You don’t understand why Allah let people spread mischief in the land and why in wars innocent and poor women and children receiving bombs over their heads.
e. You are disbeliever because you want to live for your pleasures and you don’t want to comply with any religious law. You have rejected the Divinity for the sake of your pleasures and joys.
In the five mentioned categories if you belong to one or all first four categories then chance and hope is yet open for you. If you belong to the last category then to it belong arrogant people who made their beings superior over others. These people are the real evil spreaders. Quran condemn them in sturdiest way and it confirmed they are the worst of all human beings. For them is Hell Fire. They will receive unimaginable torment in Hell Fire where they neither live nor die. Religious hypocrites who use religion or manipulate religion according to their desires would also be the fuel of Hell Fire for misguiding naïve people.
Jesus was a Nobel Prophet. You can’t find anything against his personality in Quran, in Bible, and in any book of history. There is no other model of humbleness, piety, generosity, wisdom, etc. like Jesus.
Yes, there is no match between arrogant people and Jesus along with his disciples. Jesus and his disciples were far superior to arrogant evil doers. From Jesus and his disciples no one got hurt but they showed great patience over persecutions by the hands of disgusting arrogant disbelievers of his time.
I hope you now have the picture why disbelievers are hated people overall.
Quote:2nd question, do you believe the religion you follow (Islam) is superior over all religions?
Quote:It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).
Again, there seems to be only 3 options,
1 you don't believe the quran is true,
2 you think both these translations are wrong,
3 you do believe Islam is superior and that you are superior to people who disbelieve until the day of resurrection.
If I'm missing an option out please let me know.
I am a follower of Prophet Mohammad. I do believe that Islam is superior over all religions of the world. The reason for my belief is:
1. Allah had given Psalm to Prophet David as Divine Law. People have corrupted that law. Then Allah revived the law by sending Torah over Prophet Moses. However, after Prophet Moses people have corrupted Torah as well. Then Allah again revived the Divine Law by sending Gospel over Prophet Jesus and unfortunately, people have corrupted the Gospel too.
Then finally, Allah revealed Quran over Prophet Mohammed. Allah declared Quran to be the last and final revelation. This time Allah took the responsibility Himself for the security of His last and final revelation from being corrupted.
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message (Quran); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Al Hijr (15)
-Verse 9-
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 82-
Quran is the only Scripture in the world, which has survived more than 1,400 years without being corrupted. I count it a miracle as there is no other scripture or book (equivalent in volume to Quran), which has survived more than 100 years from not being corrupted. This is a living fact.
2. Allah has protected Quran in human memories. I am confident in stating that it is impossible for some person to memorise complete book (equivalent in volume to Quran) in foreign tongue without knowing the language. However, this Glory goes to Quran.
According to conservative figures, there are around 30,000,000 people around the world who saved Quran in their brains and 70% - 75% of those people don’t know Arabic as language. The people who memorised Quran belong to every culture, colour, and race of human civilizations. It is simply a miracle.
I re-quote the verse again from the translation of Yusuf Ali
It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness.
Al Fat-h (48)
-Verse 28-
It isn't wars or natural disasters or religious crooks or temptation of pleasures. That would be illogical.
I don't believe in Islam because I don't believe a lot of the claims you just made were true, I don't believe in flying horses, sticks that turn into snakes, adam and eve.
I never will believe in any of these things because there's no reason for me to do so. I can tell you now from the Islamic perspective there will never be any hope for me.
You didn't answer my question.
Is it correct you follow Jesus as a prophet of Islam? As far as I'm aware all of the prophets of Islam are equal, so when I ask you "Do you follow Jesus" you saying "I follow the prophet Muhammad" Is an illogical answer.
Quote:"O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.
So the question is do you follow Jesus the Islamic prophet, and are you superior to me right now?
The quran says you are superior to me until the day of resurrection, this is according to the quran, Right now I can tell you Muhammad to me is just a dead religious conman, if he ever existed at all, and you are a Muslim, so do you believe you are superior to me?
The quran has also said Islam is superior over all religions so do you believe that is true?
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
(August 26, 2013 at 2:16 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I belong to none of the categories you mentioned.
It isn't wars or natural disasters or religious crooks or temptation of pleasures. That would be illogical.
I don't believe in Islam because I don't believe a lot of the claims you just made were true, I don't believe in flying horses, sticks that turn into snakes, adam and eve.
Hi Paulpablo
It seems you have not read my long post with care.
Everyone has freedom of choice. If you want to disagree with my reasoning, you are most welcome but if you are attacking on my reasoning by saying, I am lying then you have to prove that by giving evidences and reference material. Saying, “You are a liar” in empty space is easy. A child of 3rd grade can say that.
Show the world that Quran is corrupted and it has discrepancies. There are many Atheist Brothers and Sister waiting to have some good fun out of our discussion.
Simply prove false following two verses by giving evidences from Quran and by giving logical and rational reasoning.
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message (Quran); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Al Hijr (15)
-Verse 9-
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 82-
(August 26, 2013 at 2:16 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I never will believe in any of these things because there's no reason for me to do so. I can tell you now from the Islamic perspective there will never be any hope for me.
I repeat you are free to build anything based on your ideas. If your ideas are good and correct then you will be a happy man but if not then you alone would be responsible for bad consequences. For your life, decision is yours not mine.
(August 26, 2013 at 2:16 pm)paulpablo Wrote: You didn't answer my question.
Is it correct you follow Jesus as a prophet of Islam? As far as I'm aware all of the prophets of Islam are equal, so when I ask you "Do you follow Jesus" you saying "I follow the prophet Muhammad" Is an illogical answer.
Yes, all Biblical prophets are holy for me. I don’t make any distinction between them. They were all messengers of Allah and brought the same message to their nations.
(August 26, 2013 at 2:16 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Quote:"O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.
So the question is do you follow Jesus the Islamic prophet,
Yes, I believe Jesus taught exactly what Mohammad taught to his people and Jesus was an Islamic Prophet.
(August 26, 2013 at 2:16 pm)paulpablo Wrote: And are you superior to me right now?
I don’t know whether I am superior to you or inferior. This knowledge is only with Allah Who knows what is hidden in our minds and what deeds we had done in our lives.
To be Muslim doesn’t mean I am Superior. My deeds along with my faith will make me superior or inferior at the Day of Judgment.
In this world if some Muslim will say he is superior than you then by this he is collecting trouble over his head for the Day of Judgment.
(August 26, 2013 at 2:16 pm)paulpablo Wrote: The quran says you are superior to me until the day of resurrection, this is according to the quran, Right now I can tell you Muhammad to me is just a dead religious conman, if he ever existed at all, and you are a Muslim, so do you believe you are superior to me?
The quran has also said Islam is superior over all religions so do you believe that is true?
In my previous post, I had given you my response on this question. I had also given you a proper reason for that.
You have rejected my reasoning and announced my reasoning to be a deceit. So now, you have to prove the two verses are false.
Al Hijr (15), -Verse 9-
An Nisaa (4) -Verse 82-
Once you prove above verses false with success after that I will ask you to prove that Prophet Mohammad was a Conman.
Throwing words in thin air is easy. If you have, muscles then come with evidences and references.
