(September 18, 2013 at 9:04 am)Texas Sailor Wrote: That statement is non-sensical. Give an example of that occuring. One choosing something different because they wanted to.

Do people act differently when they're drunk? If so why do you think that is what has changed?

Quote: That is mere post-hoc conjecture. To say that you could have done differently is no different than saying you could have existed in a different universe.

I exist in the universe/realty I exist within and can exist nowhere else same goes for you.

Quote:Do you refer to your self, are your white blood cells the thing you have in mind, or is it a specific channel of information that occurs in consciousness?

White blood cells have something to do with the immune system?

Quote:If they stopped performing, and you developped bone-marrow cancer, would your conscious sense of self be responsible?

The control we have over our physical body is limited. You can choose a healthy lifestyle to minimize your risk of cancer, that's what you can do with it. If you're a smoker for instance you ought to use your freewill to quit, difficult though it is.

Quote:No, you would be a victem. But those white blood-cells are you, right? [quote]

They are part of your immune system which is part of you? You don't actively control everything in your body it would take too much effort.


[quote]So, to say that the products of your subconscious are examples of free decisions made by YOU, then you are guilty of decieving yourself.

I never claimed that I said there are unconscious physical automatic process that make suggestions. You act upon them.

Quote:Stop at that point, and re-examine what you mean when you refer to YOU, and be honest about the actual source of the thoughts that occur to it.

I can fed the information that I'm feeling hungry and need to eat something. Then I can either act upon it and stuff my face or if I'm on a diet have to put up with it. I can do either which I like.

Quote:Your subconsciousness is you.

The part of me that is beyond conscious control but seeing as I am the conscious part ultimately it's really just something that makes recommendations. You decide what to do with the information fed in.

Quote:Yes, this is a psychological fact. Your kidney's are you as well. Another fact. But neither of these facts assist in anyway when mulling over the concept of free-will which resides in consciousness.

My kidneys are organs in my body they aren't me I'm just using them for a function, well they're being used for me as I have no control over them. I can control my arms and legs and things just fine they're quite useful for doing stuff.

(September 18, 2013 at 9:53 am)Zone Wrote: Do people act differently when they're drunk? If so why do you think that is what has changed?

This is actually a statement in support of what I’m saying. Yes they act differently, because a new influence is affecting the neurophysiological processes that control their conditioned type of behavior. A mind conditioned to function in a specific way, is being altered, and performs in a different way that is inconsistent with the way it is conditioned. Every life experience you have, every social interaction you have, your upbringing, these are ALL things that determine your actions and decisions in the future but over time. Directly impairing the source of thought is a more direct and obvious way of effecting the outcome of your decisions, but ultimately, it’s no more impactful than ALL the other things that lead up to it. And just because you and I are both drunk, it doesn’t mean we can be expected to behave the same way either. That’s because the alcohol is combined with the other factors and is not the sole underlying explanation.

(September 18, 2013 at 9:53 am)Zone Wrote: I exist in the universe/realty I exist within and can exist nowhere else same goes for you.

I think you missed the point here again. What I said was:
When you look back at something you did, and think that-You could have done differently –Is no different than saying-You could have existed in a different universe. Saying that you could have done differently if you wanted to, ignores the obvious flaw in such a speculation, the “If you wanted to” part. The fact is, you “wanted” to do exactly what you did, and would not have nor could you have, done any differently than EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID! Saying otherwise is nothing more than retrospective conjecture that offers no clarity to the notion of Free Will.

(September 18, 2013 at 9:53 am)Zone Wrote: The control we have over our physical body is limited. You can choose a healthy lifestyle to minimize your risk of cancer, that's what you can do with it. If you're a smoker for instance you ought to use your freewill to quit, difficult though it is.

You’re missing the point here.

There are parts of your body that perform functions without your consciousness giving them instructions, yes?

The parts that perform those functions are equally a part of you as anything else is, are they not?


If the functions in your body that fight cancer shut-down, and you contract it, would it be fair for me to ridicule you for being careless?

I’m not saying that these functions are example of why free-will is false. I’m saying that your subconscious mind operates without you consciously controlling it either. The effects it has on your consciousness are no more in your control than those which fight cancer. Why do you insist on taking credit for your subsconscious activity? You have to give a reason for this, otherwise your position on Free Will is debunked.

Your subconscious mind feeds your conscious sense of self the information that you identify with as being YOUR thoughts.

But YOU, in the sense that you identify with being YOU, is getting information from an involuntary source, and then taking credit for it as it presents itself into consciousness.

You can take no more credit for the thoughts that appear in consciousness than you can for the tumor that forms on your brain. Is this not making sense to you?

(September 18, 2013 at 9:53 am)Zone Wrote: They are part of your immune system which is part of you? You don't actively control everything in your body…

That is my entire point. So, you can’t consciously take credit for the functions they are performing, right? Even though they are YOU in every sense. You aren’t the agent in control of them, nor is your consciousness the source of their existence, so them working or not working, is not something that YOU can take credit for, given what you associate as being YOU, same goes for your thoughts!

(September 18, 2013 at 9:53 am)Zone Wrote: I said there are unconscious physical automatic process that make suggestions. You act upon them.

Precisely! Those “suggestions” are determined by your subconscious, which we’ve established, is something you are not in control of. The suggestion you “choose” is determined by your unique mind and the way it was formed. The decision made at that point, is the only one YOU could ever make. The retrospective observation that other things existed to choose from, does not, and could not change the choice you made.

(September 18, 2013 at 9:53 am)Zone Wrote: The part of me that is beyond conscious control but seeing as I am the conscious part ultimately it's really just something that makes recommendations. You decide what to do with the information fed in.

I think you may want to do a little more research, what you’ve just said is a baseless assertion, and it’s demonstrably false. But ultimately, it’s irrelevant to my argument. Those “suggestions” are what creates the illusion of an option. Your consciousness is at the mercy of those suggestions. Every single thought you have, the key strokes that you make, ALL of them just occur to you from a deeper state of awareness. It’s illusory to pretend that your consciousness is the creator and author of them.

If you pay attention, and are really honest with yourself, it’s quite obvious.

(If you watch the video, many of your complaints and “objections” are addressed in it)

Close your eyes, and try to think of as many movie names as you can in 2 minutes.

There will be a hiatus of nothingness, and then, from seemingly nowhere, names of movies will begin to appear in consciousness.

Once the 2 minutes is up, do a Google search for the top 20 highest grossing movies.

You will probably be familiar with most, if not all of them by name. But, most of them, perhaps none of them would have occurred to you during your experiment. You know them, they are in your brain, but, they just won’t occur to you.

You are clearly not free to choose that which doesn’t occur to you to choose.

You are clearly not what chooses that which occurs to you, and you are clearly not privy to ALL the possible information stored in your mind.

So, I’m curious, on what grounds do you pretend to take credit for the things that your subconscious offers?

You are making baseless assertions that “you choose from suggestions”, but you haven’t established these terms as anything more that incoherent conjecture.

(September 18, 2013 at 12:01 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote: This is actually a statement in support of what I’m saying. Yes they act differently, because a new influence is affecting the neurophysiological processes that control their conditioned type of behavior.

Yes but what is it that alcohol does to them? Think about this one.

Quote:I think you missed the point here again. What I said was:
When you look back at something you did, and think that-You could have done differently –Is no different than saying-You could have existed in a different universe. Saying that you could have done differently if you wanted to, ignores the obvious flaw in such a speculation, the “If you wanted to” part. The fact is, you “wanted” to do exactly what you did, and would not have nor could you have, done any differently than EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID!

No because I can want to do something but not do it. Animals have to do what they want and machines can't want to do anything.

Quote:There are parts of your body that perform functions without your consciousness giving them instructions, yes?

Yes.

Quote:The parts that perform those functions are equally a part of you as anything else is, are they not?

Aye.

Quote:If the functions in your body that fight cancer shut-down, and you contract it, would it be fair for me to ridicule you for being careless?

It would be my bodies fault really, the genetic sequence fucked up or something but it's not something I necessarily did. But if smoke and got lung cancer then it would be my fault. So it does depend.

Quote:I’m not saying that these functions are example of why free-will is false. I’m saying that your subconscious mind operates without you consciously controlling it either.

It wouldn't be sub-conscious if I could. It would take much effort to do everything your sub-conscious can handle automatically. You're trimmed down to what you need.

Quote:The effects it has on your consciousness are no more in your control than those which fight cancer. Why do you insist on taking credit for your subsconscious activity?

I didn't say I did. You can certainly override the autopilot to some extent or ignore suggestions from it.

Quote:Your subconscious mind feeds your conscious sense of self the information that you identify with as being YOUR thoughts.

We're talking about a very primitive part of the brain here it's not the part where conscious thought occurs.

Quote:But YOU, in the sense that you identify with being YOU, is getting information from an involuntary source, and then taking credit for it as it presents itself into consciousness.

No you just have a little reptile brain in your skull that gives you suggestions and/or runs the automatic pilot program. That's not the higher functionality we have.

Quote:You can take no more credit for the thoughts that appear in consciousness than you can for the tumor that forms on your brain. Is this not making sense to you?

Well no it isn't really, I don't think you understand how the arrangement works. Different parts of the brain have different tasks the primitive parts take care of the basics of survival and function.

Quote:That is my entire point. So, you can’t consciously take credit for the functions they are performing, right? Even though they are YOU in every sense. You aren’t the agent in control of them, nor is your consciousness the source of their existence, so them working or not working, is not something that YOU can take credit for, given what you associate as being YOU, same goes for your thoughts!

I can take credit for driving a car even if the gears are automatic or it has automatic wipers.

Quote: Precisely! Those “suggestions” are determined by your subconscious, which we’ve established, is something you are not in control of.

Automatic functions mean less you have to do yourself?

Quote: The suggestion you “choose” is determined by your unique mind and the way it was formed. The decision made at that point, is the only one YOU could ever make. The retrospective observation that other things existed to choose from, does not, and could not change the choice you made.

But you can decide not to do something you would like to do or do something you don't really want to do. That's the freewill element we're aware of these things.

Quote:I think you may want to do a little more research, what you’ve just said is a baseless assertion, and it’s demonstrably false. But ultimately, it’s irrelevant to my argument. Those “suggestions” are what creates the illusion of an option. Your consciousness is at the mercy of those suggestions.

You may be speaking for yourself here. Ever considered learning some self control?

Quote:Every single thought you have, the key strokes that you make, ALL of them just occur to you from a deeper state of awareness. It’s illusory to pretend that your consciousness is the creator and author of them.

My conscious mind is moving my hand and hitting the keys I want to type right now so yeah I'm the author of this. If I wasn't I'd like to know who else was.

Quote:If you pay attention, and are really honest with yourself, it’s quite obvious.

Is it?

Quote:(If you watch the video, many of your complaints and “objections” are addressed in it)

I don't have complaints or objections only a slight sense of bafflement.

Quote:Close your eyes, and try to think of as many movie names as you can in 2 minutes.

There will be a hiatus of nothingness, and then, from seemingly nowhere, names of movies will begin to appear in consciousness.

Yes of course, you give your brain an order and it retrieves the information for you. It's a handy biological computer you have in there.

Quote:You will probably be familiar with most, if not all of them by name. But, most of them, perhaps none of them would have occurred to you during your experiment. You know them, they are in your brain, but, they just won’t occur to you.

There are only a certain number of films you know?

Quote:You are clearly not free to choose that which doesn’t occur to you to choose.

It depends on the films you've seen really.

Quote:You are clearly not what chooses that which occurs to you, and you are clearly not privy to ALL the possible information stored in your mind.

True but you only need to focused on a small part of it, the stuff you immediately need right at this moment.

Quote:So, I’m curious, on what grounds do you pretend to take credit for the things that your subconscious offers?

That's just your little reptile portion of your brain not your higher functions.

Quote:You are making baseless assertions that “you choose from suggestions”, but you haven’t established these terms as anything more that incoherent conjecture.

The base being I know that I'm doing this, I ought to know given that I'm the one in here. I can back this up with a working knowledge of brain function. The parts of the brain responsible for what you're talking about are the primitive parts.

Nothing you've said leaves any room for your notion of free will. You admitted limitation after limitation, hinderance after hinderance. Your presupposition of free will has so little remaining. I can't even recognize what it is that you're trying to defend anymore. Whatever it is, there's nothing Free about it. You seem to think that a puppet is free so long as it likes its strings. You are trying really hard to ignore and make excuses for the strings, but sorry to tell you, they're still there. If you insist on calling that Free Will, knock yourself out! To each his own. Hell, there are crazier unfounded beliefs all over this forum!

(September 18, 2013 at 5:07 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote: Nothing you've said leaves any room for your notion of free will. You admitted limitation after limitation, hinderance after hinderance. Your presupposition of free will has so little remaining. I can't even recognize what it is that you're trying to defend anymore. Whatever it is, there's nothing Free about it. You seem to think that a puppet is free so long as it likes its strings. You are trying really hard to ignore and make excuses for the strings, but sorry to tell you, they're still there. If you insist on calling that Free Will, knock yourself out! To each his own. Hell, there are crazier unfounded beliefs all over this forum!

Who's supposed to be pulling the strings? We're pulling the strings! You're not one these types who tries to deny we're conscious and it's some kind of illusion are you?

No. Again, you are under the impression that determinism means something/someone else is in control. You don't seem to understand the type of "you" that this conversation requires you to recognize. Saying that "you" are in control because the underlying neurophysiological processes that dictate your awareness are a part of you, is similar to walking across a frozen pond , and claiming to be able to walk on water. There is mounds of data supporting this, the OP gives examples, but you're really set on ignoring it, then there's nothing anyone can tell ya! No worries.

(September 19, 2013 at 6:24 am)Texas Sailor Wrote: No. Again, you are under the impression that determinism means something/someone else is in control. You don't seem to understand the type of "you" that this conversation requires you to recognize. Saying that "you" are in control because the underlying neurophysiological processes that dictate your awareness are a part of you, is similar to walking across a frozen pond , and claiming to be able to walk on water. There is mounds of data supporting this, the OP gives examples, but you're really set on ignoring it, then there's nothing anyone can tell ya! No worries.

I think you think you know more than we actually know about how consciousness and the brain operates. In any case I already explained how the sub-conscious doesn't control everything in you conscious it makes suggestions some of which you can consciously bypass. Our self restraining ability is impaired with alcohol, you can say it reduces your freewill.

A psychology class may do you some good. You keep using words and terms, but fail to accurately define them. In a conversation about whether or not free-will exists, simply repeating that you think you have it, gets us nowhere. If you are going to make mention of self restraint, you need to know the implications of it within the context of our conversation. Self- restraint, or Free-won't , is just as much a part of this conversation. Asserting it is true because you think so, or that it makes sense to you, or because you really want it to be... Are not good reasons to accept it.

I have an A-level in psychology not that freewill is covered in psychology this philosophy we're talking about. Can we just say that we don't have the freewill to not believe in freewill? Or would you like to use your freewill to say otherwise?

(September 19, 2013 at 7:32 am)Zone Wrote: I have an A-level in psychology not that freewill is covered in psychology this philosophy we're talking about. Can we just say that we don't have the freewill to not believe in freewill? Or would you like to use your freewill to say otherwise?

You don't recognize how psychological research can contribute to philosophical discussions of the mind? I have no choice but to question the credibility of your "A-level" pertaining to psychology if you are unaware of the impact made on the field by studying the effects of the subconscious. If "A-level" means you got an A (grade) in the class, I have a hard time believing you did so, and still manage to display such ignorance pertaining to the subconscious. Unless, this "A" you recieved was a very VERY long time ago. In which case, a refresher may be in order. I recieved an A in biology my freshman year in college, but for the life of me, I can't remember the entire periodic table. But your lack of understanding of the subconscious is comparable to me being unable to identify a mammal after taking biology. I think we're done here.