(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote:

(September 27, 2013 at 9:51 pm)genkaus Wrote: Don't read Russian. Sorry.

In this case you have to believe me.

(September 27, 2013 at 9:51 pm)genkaus Wrote: Your own examples of Crane and green fail your test.
Other examples include crone, caravan, Karn (sanskrit) and Karin (Japanese).

You will be very surprised now.

Crane – look at it’s shape. As a bird it is crescent like shape. And as a mechanism it forms angle which was appearing several times during my explanations:



And also some cranes have a crown on his head



This bird is a divine bird in preislamic religions. There were three goddess Al-Manat, Al-Uzza and Al-Lat which were called “three honorable cranes”. One of this goddess was portrayed with two fishes on its head.



If you remember I told that fish is one of the ancient moon symbol. Jesus symbol is fish:



Green – etymologically goes to

Old English grene "green, young, immature, raw," earlier groeni, from West Germanic *gronja- (cf. Old Saxon grani, Old Frisian grene, Old Norse grænn, Danish grøn, Dutch groen, Old High German gruoni, German grün), from PIE root *ghre- "grow"

Growing moon is the epithet of crescent. Crescent is usually called “young moon”.
Root “grow” was already mentioned with connection to the moon in "crescent" etymology which comes from PIE root *ker- "to grow".
In our country for somebody young we say “he is green”.

Crone – the etymology of this word comes to PIE root *(s)ker- (1) "to cut"

Look at the instruments used by ancient people to cut something and will understand what connection it has to the crescent shape.
Egyptian stone knives:



Knife of Eskimo of Siberia


Slavic tribes were having a wearable mascot of the cutting tool. This mascot is moon symbol in their tradition.


Pay attention how english word "mascot" is similar to Moses, Messiah, Mesyac etc.

Why the word “crone” is used to describe an old woman? Because of its shape!


The humped corn is the famous magic character of Russian folklore – Baba Yaga. It is the night witch. With witch celebration in full moon day.

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Caravan – this word does not correspond to the condition of example. The construction C-R-N must be followed.
But “caravan” is anther exponential construction. C-R-V
KoRoVa in Russia means “cow”.
CaRaVela means “boat” and etymologically gets back to the small wicker boat covered with leather. Leather of the cow for sure.

And what is super interesting that GRaPHic, CaRVe, CuRVe are same source and the ancient way or writing and DRaWing was carving by some SHaRP stick on the parchment – the type of medium made from animal skin. Cow and sheep (ship ) - both horned animals.

Deepest etymology of word “caravela” goes to beetly (scarab) wich if you remember is Egyptian symbol of god and is portrayed with crescent moon under and full moon up. According to official history this beetle symbolizes PASSOVER!


English “bug” phoneticly corresponds with Slavic words “bog” (god) and “byk” (bull)


Karn (sanskrit) –
I have found Karna (करेणु), which means “ear, bore, pierce, handle of a vessel, helm of a ship.”
Ear was already mentioned in Rig-Veda example it has crescent like shape and the ancient earrings mostly had special form which symbolizes god people respect. In India this type of earrings is still wildly used. For example in national Karnataka costume.



Sanskrit "kareNu" is atranslated as elephant – the animal famous for its ears and tusks (white crescent).
And there is the predicted god appears. Ganesha is the god represented as elephant. It has only one tusk according to the tradition.

Karin (花梨) – if you talk about this kind of fruit known as “Karin” in Japan you can see that inside it has two moon like shapes.

Also such kind of fruit is mentioned in the BiBLe. Remember an aPPLe of Adam and Eva?


So as you can see with all wildest range of meanings existing in our mind the set of possible semantic variations is very limited.
You can try to check more words of similar structure and again you will come to predicted semantic core.
Thanks for attention!

This seems a case of confirmation bias. I know of a rather famous ancient culture - two actually - which were hugely influential and yet don't contain (as far as I can recall) any connection between... the crescent moon and, er, cow horns?

I mean, cows are the sacred animal of Hera, but Hera isn't the moon goddess, or related to the moon at all. If such a connection were truly pervasive, we would expect to find the lunar goddess Serene (or later Artemis) to have some connection to them, but so far as I remember they don't. The closest is Artemis' twin brother (Apollo), the sun god & god of prophecy, has some sacred bulls or something.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:52 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote: This seems a case of confirmation bias. I know of a rather famous ancient culture - two actually - which were hugely influential and yet don't contain (as far as I can recall) any connection between... the crescent moon and, er, cow horns?

I mean, cows are the sacred animal of Hera, but Hera isn't the moon goddess, or related to the moon at all. If such a connection were truly pervasive, we would expect to find the lunar goddess Serene (or later Artemis) to have some connection to them, but so far as I remember they don't. The closest is Artemis' twin brother (Apollo), the sun god & god of prophecy, has some sacred bulls or something.

Cows are only one recognizable symbol, but I did not tell that it appears with every god or goddess.
But it’s true that there are many bulls and cows connected to gods.

Etymology of word “Hera” has one cow related variant: A.J. van Windekens,offers "young cow, heifer", which is consonant with Hera's common epithet βοῶπις (boōpis, cow-eyed).
Hera’s moon nature I can illustrate with following examples:
Io was, in Greek mythology, a priestess of Hera in Argos. Hera transformed Io into cow.
The ancients connected Io with the Moon, and in Aeschylus' Prometheus Bound, where Io encounters Prometheus, she refers to herself as "the horned virgin", both bovine and lunar.
One more interesting example is main attribute of Hera – Diadem
You can check above that there is a story about Diadem as a symbol of god. Diadem has crescent shape, especially on Hera:



Artemis was the Hellenic goddess of the hunt, wild animals, wilderness, childbirth, virginity and protector of young girls, bringing and relieving disease in women; she often was depicted as a huntress carrying a bow and arrows.[6] The deer and the cypress were sacred to her.
Hunting that time is associated with bow which has crescent shape. Most of wild animals are horned. Deers for example.



Cypress is came not accidentally. The shape of this tree is horn like. That is why it was also connected to goddess.



You can see that one or another way indicated semantic core appears in connection of any god entity.

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Apollo's most common attributes were the bow and arrow. I already mentioned that bow is moon symbol due to its shape.
Other attributes of his included the kithara, the plectrum and the sword.
Kithara – horned musical instrument:


Plectrum – has triangle shape. Ancient swords were also curved not straight.

Another common emblem was the sacrificial tripod, representing his prophetic powers.
Sacrificial tripod is the cup which also have semicircle shape. The cup is also the symbol of Jesus as you remember.

The Pythian Games were held in Apollo's honor every four years at Delphi. The bay laurel plant was used in expiatory sacrifices and in making the crown of victory at these games.

This crown of victory is also crescent shape. And same Laurel wreath is associated with Jesus.

You can try to connect above symbols with the sun. It would be much difficult and identification more tensioned.

I don't think I'm going to wade through all of these spurious etymologies but there is one that leaps out at me.

Online Etymology Dictionary Wrote:crone (n.)
late 14c., from Anglo-French carogne, from Old North French carogne, term of abuse for a cantankerous or withered woman, literally "carrion," from Vulgar Latin *caronia (see carrion).

So no, we don't get the word 'crone' from the curved shape of a stereotype's spine.

And couldn't all those blades be curved because that's a more efficient shape for slicing meat or whatever?

(September 28, 2013 at 4:15 pm)Stimbo Wrote: So no, we don't get the word 'crone' from the curved shape of a stereotype's spine.

Well, I did not say we get it etymologically. However, there is a geometric similarity. One of noticeable difference of old people, especially crones, is the structure of their spine.
Etymologically “crone” comes from “meat” and “cut”.

http://www.etymonline.com/ Wrote:crone (n.)
late 14c., from Anglo-French carogne, from Old North French carogne, term of abuse for a cantankerous or withered woman, literally "carrion," from Vulgar Latin *caronia (see carrion).
carrion (n.)
early 13c., carione, from Anglo-French carogne (Old North French caroigne; Old French charogne, 12c., "carrion, corpse," Modern French charogne), from Vulgar Latin *caronia "carcass" (source of Italian carogna, Spanish carroña "carrion"), from Latin caro "meat" (see carnage).
carnage (n.)
c.1600, from Middle French carnage (16c.), from Old Italian carnaggio "slaughter, murder," from Medieval Latin carnaticum "flesh," from Latin carnaticum "slaughter of animals," from carnem (nominative caro) "flesh," originally "a piece of flesh," from PIE root *(s)ker- (1) "to cut"

(September 28, 2013 at 4:15 pm)Stimbo Wrote: And couldn't all those blades be curved because that's a more efficient shape for slicing meat or whatever?

I did not say that they made their blade this shape because of the moon. Nevertheless, they recognized the oldest and powerful available symbol when they made technically effective shape for slicing meat. They get curved knife. Its shape was reminding them well-known object, which they met every night. It was associated with the moon thus.

Then just what are you saying? These things are connected to and derived from the shape of a crescent like the Moon even though they're not, and anything that shows they're not is still evidence that they are?

I realise there's probably a language barrier but you cannot be this obtuse.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote:

(September 27, 2013 at 10:05 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Monolens, what current applications exist for the methodology you are using?

As the result of my opening, I received two possible applications:

1. Universal translator. The program, which can translate any language to English, for example, without using the dictionary of initial language.
2. The algorithm of compressing the text information 3 times effective then ZIP, RAR algorithms.

Regarding the methodology. It helps to discover human history and properties of ancient stories without breaking of Occam's razor principle.

That's very interesting.

What fields of study currently use similar methodology? Linguistics? Semiotic studies?

(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote: In this case you have to believe me. The link I gave you is the collection of folklore quests about the moon. In text there are many allegories like: bull, horns, milk cup, cheese, bread, plate.
And these quests are pointed to children. Russian children understand those simple allegories, but you – aged man - don’t?
If somebody will ask you the quest like: round white bread coming night time to the sky. You will not be able to understand that the quest is about the moon?

Or you could give the translation. In the translation you provided, there is no indication that those statements are being used as allegories for moon. I'm assuming there is more in the rest that does indicate it.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote: For sure it is easy to read someone’s comments and argue by it. Did you read Rig-Veda yourself?
If you’d read it you will understand that singing of hymns according to text was done mostly night time. Not in sunset, not in sunrise. There were waiting only for one object, which appears in the night. They were doing fireplaces that time to make worship. If you come to modern India you will see that mostly all festivals take place in the night.
Regarding two objects. I did not miss it. I was waiting for somebody to ask
It is very very easy. They did not see two objects. They were seeing the object itself and its reflection in the water.
Get back to your opinion that Ashvins are sunset and sunrise. How you can logically connect mentioned objects to the sun? The boat for example. Or the horn. Or the ear.
Interesting.

I don't have to read Rigveda in order to know what it says. The hymns you provided as an example of moon-worship are explicitly addressed to the Ashvins. That's not an allegory or a conclusion based on when or where they were sung - that's something given in the hymns themselves.

The next two verses of the hymns - which you so conveniently left out - are:

Like two hands give ye us increasing vigour; like heaven and earth constrain the airy regions.
Asvins, these hymns that struggle to approach you, sharpen ye like an axe upon a whetstone.
These prayers of ours exalting you, O Asvins, have the GrtSamadas, for a laud, made ready.
Welcome them, O ye Heroes, and come bither. Loud may we speak. with brave men, in assembly.

And no, there is no indication that these prayers are, were or even supposed to be said at night. In fact, the ideal time for daily prayers in Hinduism is the crack of dawn - when you are getting ready for the day's work.

Also, if you come to modern India, you'll find that most of the festivals take place during daytime - not night.

And your "object and its reflection" argument doesn't work since the hymns explicitly talk about pairs of things.

And its not my opinion that the Ashvins symbolize sunrise and sunset - that's how they are identified. And once more, try to remember, these objects don't connect to the sun - they are given as pairs of things and therefore connect to paired events.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote: If you will go deeper you will see that this simple answer is universal and correct.
Did you ever think about why the rabbit is the symbol of Easter? Just read this Wiki story about how worldwide cultures separately came to one common conclusion that rabbit is moon animal.
You know why they did so? Because they were seeing themselves the rabbit on the moon. Tell them that this idea is so simple that can be truth
This tradition can be found in every continent.

What's funny is that neither of the links you gave suggest that the moon-rabbit legend had anything to do with Easter. In fact, the explanation for the Easter rabbit seems to have nothing to do with the moon rabbit.

Truth is pretty simple in both cases. The reason for moon-rabbit legend is because the markings on the moon look like a rabbit. Rabbit being a part of Easter is coincidental and has a completely different explanation.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote: Agree with you about bottle U-shape. The example was to show how close that shape of boat to the shape of wishbone.

And you ended up showing that it wasn't close at all. If you provide two examples to compare and contrast and the one intended to be the contrast ends up having greater resemblance, whatever "closeness" you were imagining doesn't exist.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote: I have to tell you that when I received first result of research I was sure that everything I get is about the sun. It is stated in my book. But I was doubt about U-shape which was appearing in my investigations many times. I have started to think that the allegory of sunrise and the difference of sun level is the origin of such results. I live in Ukraine where the moon is coming in the sky in form of C letter. Thus I could not think that it can be different.
When I went to Sri Lanka, one night I look in the sky and I get the real answer why there so many U-shapes appear. The moon was turned the way it forms U shape. This was a great insight. In one second I understood what was the object which I met during investigation.
The point is that closer to equator the moon is turning during the night. In Sri Lanka it turns up to 90 degrees during one night. So you can see C-shape, U-shape and even “roof” shape there.
In Russian “roof” is translated as “krisha”. You can see the correlation to “crescent” and “Christ”

And here's where you made your error. You should've expected the U-symbol to be a recurring motif - as you should've expected the O-symbol. Then you wouldn't be making unjustified leaps like seeing similarity between Christ and crescent.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote: MSS and MSS in both words. It’s not little. It is full compliance in terms of phonetics.
I can add the Hebrew name of Jesus. “Messiah”. Same MSS you can find here.

Actually, one has MSS while the other has MSC. So, no compliance. And the Hebrew name of Jesus would be Yeshua - not Messiah. Again, no compliance.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote: Sure, in case there is only one misinterpretation. However, there are many examples. It is what is called the correlation. As a scientist, I understand that any correlation can be explained not in terms of accident happening, but in terms of law.

As a "scientist" you should understand that coincidence is a possible explanation for correlation. Just because two things appear correlated doesn't mean there is any actual causal relation between them.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote: Please read this text (Exodus 28:36):
And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and engrave upon it, like the engravings of a signet: HOLY TO THE LORD.
And thou shalt put it on a thread of blue, and it shall be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.
And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, and Aaron shall bear the iniquity committed in the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow, even in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.

This golden plate is usually imaged as a crescent on the head of Aaron.
Becouse in original Hebrew Bible the word which is used to name it is צִּיץ (tseets) and it is translated as wreath, crown, diadem or wings.
All this objects have same shape which is correctly pictured as a crescent:
[img]www.lingvogeometry.org/images/theeth.png[/img]

Did you ever think why priest’s hat – mitra has horned form? Think about it.

Actually, from the images I've seen, its imaged in form of a place - round and circular. The shape of those things is better described as a circle and not a crescent. And once again, "horns" don't automatically mean crescent. Once again, you are reaching.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote: God told Noah that he will remind god every time when he will see the rainbow. The form of rainbow is very close to the form of crescent:

Isn’t it?

Nope. There is a difference between a semi0circle and a crescent.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Monolens Wrote: By the way, do you know that the Bible is written about the moon from the first words? To hide this fact they had to include the appearance of sun two times into text.

Prove it.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:38 pm)Monolens Wrote: You will be very surprised now.

Doubt it. I expect you to start moving the goalposts and completely ignore the test criteria you gave yourself and you do not disappoint.

For the record - the test you laid out was that any word from any language phonetically or structurally similar to "karan" would have - as a part of its etymology or semantic core - one of the following - angle, horn, beam, cow, fish, god, horn or boat.

Given the failure of this prediction, your hypothesis would as well.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:38 pm)Monolens Wrote: Crane – look at it’s shape. As a bird it is crescent like shape. And as a mechanism it forms angle which was appearing several times during my explanations:

Sorry, not a crescent.
Even if it was, the shape is unimportant - the etymological root of the word has nothing to do with the moon.
And the name of the mechanism is the consequence - not the cause of the name of the bird. Therefore, even if "angle" was part of the mechanism, it still isn't a part of the word's etymology.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:38 pm)Monolens Wrote: And also some cranes have a crown on his head

Also irrelevant. The "crowns" have nothing to do with naming the bird.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:38 pm)Monolens Wrote: This bird is a divine bird in preislamic religions. There were three goddess Al-Manat, Al-Uzza and Al-Lat which were called “three honorable cranes”. One of this goddess was portrayed with two fishes on its head.

If you remember I told that fish is one of the ancient moon symbol. Jesus symbol is fish.

So? None of it is relevant to the word's etymology. Cranes being associated with fish is, in itself, quite trivial and meaningless.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:38 pm)Monolens Wrote: Green – etymologically goes to

Old English grene "green, young, immature, raw," earlier groeni, from West Germanic *gronja- (cf. Old Saxon grani, Old Frisian grene, Old Norse grænn, Danish grøn, Dutch groen, Old High German gruoni, German grün), from PIE root *ghre- "grow"

Growing moon is the epithet of crescent. Crescent is usually called “young moon”.
Root “grow” was already mentioned with connection to the moon in "crescent" etymology which comes from PIE root *ker- "to grow".
In our country for somebody young we say “he is green”.

And what this shows us is that the semantic core of both is the PIE root *ghre- "grow" - which wasn't in your list.

Its quite simple - the crescent moon grows - which is why the word is derived from that root.

Similarly, grass grows which is why its the name of its color is derived from that root. They're connected by a common root - but "crescent" itself is not the root for green.

Neither in meaning nor in etymology, any of the words of your list are present. Thus, once again, it fails.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:38 pm)Monolens Wrote: Crone – the etymology of this word comes to PIE root *(s)ker- (1) "to cut"

Look at the instruments used by ancient people to cut something and will understand what connection it has to the crescent shape.
Egyptian stone knives:

Knife of Eskimo of Siberia

Slavic tribes were having a wearable mascot of the cutting tool. This mascot is moon symbol in their tradition.

Pay attention how english word "mascot" is similar to Moses, Messiah, Mesyac etc.

Why the word “crone” is used to describe an old woman? Because of its shape!

The humped corn is the famous magic character of Russian folklore – Baba Yaga. It is the night witch. With witch celebration in full moon day.

Giving pictures of a few kinds of knives that vaguely resemble a crescent is not sufficient to establish a connection between the PIE root *ker and the shape itself. Especially since the root of the shape has already been established as independent from it. Once again, nice try, but no cigar.

Through the etymology of the word crone we see the root *ker meaning "to cut", which gives us carnage which goes to carrion and then onto crone. Neither "crescent", nor its root nor its shape is significant here and showing the pictures of a few knives doesn't change that.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:38 pm)Monolens Wrote: Karn (sanskrit) –
I have found Karna (करेणु), which means “ear, bore, pierce, handle of a vessel, helm of a ship.”
Ear was already mentioned in Rig-Veda example it has crescent like shape and the ancient earrings mostly had special form which symbolizes god people respect. In India this type of earrings is still wildly used. For example in national Karnataka costume.

Sanskrit "kareNu" is atranslated as elephant – the animal famous for its ears and tusks (white crescent).
And there is the predicted god appears. Ganesha is the god represented as elephant. It has only one tusk according to the tradition.

And here's why it fails your test - the root meaning of the word "Karna" is "ear". That's its semantic core. All derivative meanings are based on it meaning "ear". And despite your claim, the Rigveda does not use "ear" to symbolize a crescent or moon. Whenever and wherever something can be seen as an ear - as in "being led by the ear" the word karna can function as the root meaning. Thus its use as handle of a vessel or rudder of ship.

On other note - the shape of earrings are circular - not crescent. And they do not have a special form symbolizing respect - they are an accessory.

Further, the word "ear" is used in one of the words for elephant because of its big flapping ears - nothing to do with tusks. Also, you'd find quite a lot of animal gods in Hindu mythology. Elephant was bound to come up.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:38 pm)Monolens Wrote: Karin (花梨) – if you talk about this kind of fruit known as “Karin” in Japan you can see that inside it has two moon like shapes.

It means "Summer Forest" - probably the reason for the name of the fruit based on its season. Once again, your moon analogy fails.

(September 28, 2013 at 1:38 pm)Monolens Wrote: So as you can see with all wildest range of meanings existing in our mind the set of possible semantic variations is very limited.

Actually, what I see is that while there is no etymological or semantic relation between phonetically similar words from different languages, anyone can find some arbitrary, miniscule detail of similarity between the objects those words represent and regard it as significant.