I have an e-copy of the latest book from Israel Finkelstein about the archaeological record behind the northern kingdom of "Israel." Anyone who wants to read it send me a PM with an email addy.

This is a touch more scholarly than The Bible Unearthed but at least he does not clutter up the pages with footnotes. References are cited in the text parenthesis within the text itself.

And it sure as shit will piss off fundies which is always a plus.

What is in your opinion the most fascinating ancient civilisation?

For me it is Carthage.

The Romans....stomped all over Carthage.... then re-built the city as a Roman colony.

(October 28, 2013 at 1:46 am)Minimalist Wrote: The Romans....stomped all over Carthage.... then re-built the city as a Roman colony.

Yet Rome stole it`s secrets and learnt the buisness of how to be an empire from Carthage.

And the most fascinating thing about Carthage is that we hardly know anything about it. Only from the biased view of Roman historians who painted an image of a foe.

I've had an affinity for ancient Egypt for as long as I can remember.

(October 28, 2013 at 1:49 am)The Germans are coming Wrote:

(October 28, 2013 at 1:46 am)Minimalist Wrote: The Romans....stomped all over Carthage.... then re-built the city as a Roman colony.

Yet Rome stole it`s secrets and learnt the buisness of how to be an empire from Carthage.

And the most fascinating thing about Carthage is that we hardly know anything about it. Only from the biased view of Roman historians who painted an image of a foe.

History is written by the winners, yes.

The fact is that when they finally went to war....after having been allies for centuries...Rome and Carthage were fairly similar. Oligarchies masquerading as "republics" but run by a handful of noble families. Both had a "senate."

The major difference seems to be that the Romans came to dominate Italy by assimilating the locals rather than subjugating/slaughtering them. This gave them an enormous manpower advantage over Carthage which hired mercenaries or press-ganged "allied" tribes in Spain to serve under Carthaginian generals. The system worked as long as the money flowed in.

(October 28, 2013 at 1:36 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: What is in your opinion the most fascinating ancient civilisation?

I think the mighty Israelite nation was really the most ....

I'm sorry I can't even say it with a straight face.

(October 28, 2013 at 2:16 am)Minimalist Wrote: History is written by the winners, yes.

The fact is that when they finally went to war....after having been allies for centuries...Rome and Carthage were fairly similar. Oligarchies masquerading as "republics" but run by a handful of noble families. Both had a "senate."

As far as I can tell, Carthage was worse in that regard. Almoust all it`s policy centered arround trade.

Quote:The major difference seems to be that the Romans came to dominate Italy by assimilating the locals rather than subjugating/slaughtering them. This gave them an enormous manpower advantage over Carthage which hired mercenaries or press-ganged "allied" tribes in Spain to serve under Carthaginian generals. The system worked as long as the money flowed in.

The Cartheginians didn`t even understand the concept of public property.
Go to any ancient Roman city, town or village and you will find a forum, theater, public baths, temples, memorials, magistrates, army barracks, public sanitation, schools and maybe even a circus and/or libary.
Go to an ancient Cartheginian equal and you may find a temple, a market square and if very lucky a libary. As you mentioned, they didnt even have a national army but only a navy. There was nothing there to create the notion that there was somehing like a Cartheginian identity outside of Carthago. The Cartheginians may have been very rich through this focuse on comerce and rejection of public property, but it also meant their downfall since they couldnt keep colonies loyal and most important of all: troops.

Yes...recall Machiavelli's comment upon mercenaries.

Quote:...if one holds his state on the basis of mercenary arms, he will never be firm or secure; because they are disunited, ambitious, without discipline, unfaithful; gallant among friends, vile among enemies; no fear of God, no faith with men; and one defers ruin insofar as one defers the attack; and in peace you are despoiled by them, in war by the enemy.

I had an affinity for that Rome in which a legion was a legion and Jupiter stomped all over monotheistic pretenders to "god".

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(October 28, 2013 at 1:36 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: What is in your opinion the most fascinating ancient civilisation?

For me it is Carthage.

For me the most fascinating ancient civilization was that of Rome during the period when a legion was still a legion and Jupiter stomped all over monotheistic pretenders to divinity.

The runners up are:

1. The Hittites - the first great Iron age empire, the first major Indo-european empire, and ancester to Rome by 1100 years.

2. China between the Han and Tang dynasties - not a period of great imperial expansion, to be sure, but a period of civil war that profoundly influenced the later cultural, military and administrative traditions of all of East Asia.

3. Andean culture culminating in the Inca Empire - a civilization that defied the old world stereotype of what is required for an empire and how empires can be administered.

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(October 28, 2013 at 2:16 am)Minimalist Wrote:

(October 28, 2013 at 1:49 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: Yet Rome stole it`s secrets and learnt the buisness of how to be an empire from Carthage.

And the most fascinating thing about Carthage is that we hardly know anything about it. Only from the biased view of Roman historians who painted an image of a foe.

History is written by the winners, yes.

Unless you are christian, then history is written by whiners.

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(October 28, 2013 at 1:23 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Yes...recall Machiavelli's comment upon mercenaries.

Quote:...if one holds his state on the basis of mercenary arms, he will never be firm or secure; because they are disunited, ambitious, without discipline, unfaithful; gallant among friends, vile among enemies; no fear of God, no faith with men; and one defers ruin insofar as one defers the attack; and in peace you are despoiled by them, in war by the enemy.

Well, the later roman army manage to combined the worst traits of a rapacious mercenary army and a disloyal national army.