This may or may not work.

Imagine we are all oblivious to the concept of "gods". We don't know what a "god" is, we've never seen the word "god" in our entire lives. We are discussing origins of the universe. We've narrowed it down to singularity, but don't know where to go next.

We turn to our friend Psalm 23, our friend CoxRox, and our friend DayStar, and we ask "what do you think happened?"

The idea behind this is that one of those three I just named will mention a god. Like us, they have no idea what a god is, therefore they must formulate this god logically and with reasons for each attribute from scratch. They must tell us what this thing "is" and why it is a logical idea. They must tell us its attributes, origins, and anything else they can, so that we can have a fresh debate.

This gives theists a chance to critically think about their god, and us atheists/agnostics to ask fundemental questions on every point about this god.

So remember, theists: you have no previous knowledge of what a "god" is. You are wondering about origin of the universe and you try to formulate a possibility for the rest of us to consider. As you have no previous knowledge of any "gods", you must construct your "god" from your own sense of logic. Everything about it.

Atheists: you also haven't heard of a "god". The idea is new to you, and as each point is illustrated, you question these points to see how they hold out, almost in a child-like manner. Because who knows, they might even make sense.

I think this will be most beneficial to CoxRox, and perhaps interesting for the rest of us. If it fails, it fails.

LukeMC, this is a strange thing to try and contemplate. I may never think of a god starting it all. I might just wait on science to discover what came before the big bang. I can't 'unthink' the concept of a god so I can't really do this task, but I can see what you are trying to do, bless you...

Well forget singularity for a second. How do you think the universe got here? If god isn't your answer, then what did your god ACTUALLY do? I can see my thread failing already

Ok, let's say I do imagine a power or being who started everything. If I don't know anything about science, then I can imagine what I want really: a very powerful, intelligent, benevolent being. I don't know really. Something like the demiurge maybe. Einstein believed in a force rather than a person, which I suppose makes sense. When we say 'person' this is a limited, finite being. How can a person be greater than the sun, or contain more energy than all the atoms in the universe? My brain is hurting trying to think about it. Is this a ploy to lead up a dead end where there can't be a god?

Mayyyyyyyybe

So, intelligent you say? This "force", in the absence of a brain, is intelligent? What does intelligence even mean to this force? Before the universe there is nothing to know. How is its intelligence measured when all it can "know" is itself? Or is it intelligent in the sense that it can come up with abstract concepts and plan out an entire system from them? (As in, can conceptualize something such as "energy", "time", etc and can make a "stable" universe from these things?)

Benevolence? This force has the desire to do good before there is anything to do good to? What is "good" before the universe? There is nothing for this force to interact with, nothing for it to act kindly towards. Is the force good natured in preparation for the creatures it will soon create? If it feels a desire to be good, does it experience emotion? Where does this emotion come from when this force lacks a brain or the appropriate nervous system to process emotion? How can a force be subject to something which is a trait of animal evolution?

You see what I'm doing? Please reply

I thought you were up to something

(December 6, 2008 at 6:56 pm)LukeMC Wrote: Mayyyyyyyybe

So, intelligent you say? This "force", in the absence of a brain, is intelligent? What does intelligence even mean to this force? Before the universe there is nothing to know. How is its intelligence measured when all it can "know" is itself? Or is it intelligent in the sense that it can come up with abstract concepts and plan out an entire system from them? (As in, can conceptualize something such as "energy", "time", etc and can make a "stable" universe from these things?)

I've been discussing 'other dimensions' in another thread. We can't imagine what these other dimensions could be like as we are three dimensional. So this being to me (and I may be way off mark) must in some way be 'part of' the universe, if the universe 'sprang' from it, but would necessarily be 'greater' maybe comprised of many dimensions, or different type of matter to ourselves. Maybe there is a kind of matter that does not decay, and vibrates and shimmers very beautifully and is 'endless' is some sense (just as time or parallel universes may be endless). Gosh this is getting hard. Anyway, it wouldn't have a brain like ours as it wouldn't be comprised of the elements that decay and that are finite and fixed for a set period of time. We are blips in the universe, like the sub atomic particles, we appear briefly and then disappear. So in a sense it must be energy, time, space- oh dear I seem to be straying into pantheism now.[b]

Benevolence? This force has the desire to do good before there is anything to do good to? What is "good" before the universe? There is nothing for this force to interact with, nothing for it to act kindly towards. Is the force good natured in preparation for the creatures it will soon create? If it feels a desire to be good, does it experience emotion? Where does this emotion come from when this force lacks a brain or the appropriate nervous system to process emotion? How can a force be subject to something which is a trait of animal evolution?

You see what I'm doing? Please reply

Good is part of the universe already. Everything works for the good of the organism, in some sense. This force contains everything: good, bad, order, chaos, etc. All possibilities. If there are infinite universes, maybe this being has always been 'creating' so it's not like it suddenly got bored one trillenium ago and thought I'll start making stuff.
Our human perspective is limited as we only operate in three dimensions. We don't know what is possible if other dimensions exist. How's that for now.[/b]

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Sorry I'm trying to put my replies in bold. HOpe you can follow ok...

(December 6, 2008 at 7:11 pm)CoxRox Wrote: So this being to me (and I may be way off mark) must in some way be 'part of' the universe, if the universe 'sprang' from it, but would necessarily be 'greater' maybe comprised of many dimensions, or different type of matter to ourselves.

Hence your god is comprised of matter? Can this god therefore be manipulated like other matter? I know of no matter which is capable of thought, unless it is structed in a very specific way. To be capable of thought or desire, this force/matter must have a definate structure. If not, this force has no desires or thoughts and couldn't be the conscious creator of the universe. Therefore, it is just a type of matter which exists in many dimensions?

Quote: Maybe there is a kind of matter that does not decay, and vibrates and shimmers very beautifully and is 'endless' is some sense (just as time or parallel universes may be endless). Gosh this is getting hard. Anyway, it wouldn't have a brain like ours as it wouldn't be comprised of the elements that decay and that are finite and fixed for a set period of time.

It wouldn't have a brain like ours. Does this imply that it does have a brain, formed from this special non-decaying matter? Or does it not have a brain at all/ therefore just matter?

Quote:Good is part of the universe already. Everything works for the good of the organism, in some sense.

In a universe previous to life, good only exists as a retrospective concept of the living. Star formation wasn't "good", it just "happened". When life could appreciate the stars, it was then seen as "good" because it enabled them to live. But had there been no life, there would be no "good" nor "bad". These things are interpretations made by living things.

Quote:This force contains everything: good, bad, order, chaos, etc. All possibilities.

Is this a force or matter now? You are switchign between. And in what way does it "contain" those things? If it "contains" order, how is this expressed? How does this matter/force contain it? Or is it hardwired with the concepts? I'm failing to understand this part.

Quote:If there are infinite universes, maybe this being has always been 'creating' so it's not like it suddenly got bored one trillenium ago and thought I'll start making stuff.

How does it create? Because you have told me it is matter which can exist in all dimensions? Where did the dimensions come form? If this matter created them, how did it do so if it is thoughtless, desireless matter? Did it have a choice in the creation? What did it DO to create these things?

enjoy

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(December 6, 2008 at 7:08 pm)Ace Wrote: Try this approach...now think about this. You are opening your eyes for the first time and you look around and wonder. Now you test things like nearby objects by picking them up and dropping them. You test everything and in time you find out how things work through test and study. Later you come across the question "how I got here" and you look for the answers. Now out of nowhere you come across a person who has a claim. This person says, this god did it all. You think to yourself, how do you know that? This person says I can feel him or the bible says so.

Now this claim stands against years of you testing everything and learning about things through study and not with faith. So you ask for evidence but this person fails to bring any and so you don't believe it and dismiss the claim.

What you need to do, is look at the world and question it and think of ways to learn about it through study. Like picking up a rock to understand it's weight and mass instead of believing what it is or what it weighs.

so instead of saying god did it, you say what caused it and how can I study it.

You must study what you see through detection and understanding and with the gathering of evidence to support this knowledge. This is science and reason.

I want you, to let go of god altogether. Pretend you never heard of it. Answer your questions through other ways instead.

This would also work But then it'd be a science discussion and would be moved appropriately. All I'm trying to do is look into the nature of God so that people such as CoxRox can see how it doesn't make sense unless you make serious adjustments and wind up in pantheism and beyond... I think we should make a different thread for your idea. Or you can hijack this one when me and CoxRox have come to some sort of conclusion.

(December 6, 2008 at 7:29 pm)LukeMC Wrote: This would also work But then it'd be a science discussion and would be moved appropriately. All I'm trying to do is look into the nature of God so that people such as CoxRox can see how it doesn't make sense unless you make serious adjustments and wind up in pantheism and beyond... I think we should make a different thread for your idea. Or you can hijack this one when me and CoxRox have come to some sort of conclusion.

Oh I don't need this thread or any other.
I have a terrible habit of poking my nose in

Please, continue

If there is good in the universe already there is also bad in the universe already right? So how would the good have any power over the bad? I think its all mixed in in many degrees.
Basically I think the universe is neutral until we give meaning to it. Our thoughts aren't positive or negative unless we think they're positive or negative for example. What one person considers positive is negative to another. The universe itself is just neutral, indifferent.
By the way here is a variant of the Einstein quote you have in your sig CR "The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible." - Albert Einstein - As quoted in Speaking of Science (2000) by Michael Fripp. From wikiquote.

Luke, you said: 'Hence your god is comprised of matter? Can this god therefore be manipulated like other matter? I know of no matter which is capable of thought, unless it is structed in a very specific way. To be capable of thought or desire, this force/matter must have a definate structure. If not, this force has no desires or thoughts and couldn't be the conscious creator of the universe. Therefore, it is just a type of matter which exists in many dimensions?'...........

This god must be comprised of something! What that something is I don't know and can't know. My brain is too limited to comprehend I would imagine. If something has always been, then it doesn't need to 'stay alive' like we do. We eat, sleep, reproduce. Everything about us is temporary. Our brains are a certain size and our bodies are structured so that we have limits in how we sense the universe around us. Maybe this god has got something like a brain. Maybe it is all brain if you like, it is all things, maybe?? And of course the 'matter' it is comprised of is indestructable, does not decay, is stable and 'complete'- it does not need to be recharged in any way???

You also said: 'In a universe previous to life, good only exists as a retrospective concept of the living. Star formation wasn't "good", it just "happened". When life could appreciate the stars, it was then seen as "good" because it enabled them to live. But had there been no life, there would be no "good" nor "bad". These things are interpretations made by living things.'

Remember I said maybe universes have always existed, therefore life has always existed and hence good, bad, etc.

You said: 'Is this a force or matter now? You are switchign between. And in what way does it "contain" those things? If it "contains" order, how is this expressed? How does this matter/force contain it? Or is it hardwired with the concepts? I'm failing to understand this part.'

It is both force, energy, matter (its incorruptible matter). It sends out energy to form 'big bangs' that give birth to our type of energy and our 'reality'. I don't understand it myself. I'm speculating remember.

'How does it create? Because you have told me it is matter which can exist in all dimensions? Where did the dimensions come form? If this matter created them, how did it do so if it is thoughtless, desireless matter? Did it have a choice in the creation? What did it DO to create these things?'

I've said that this god has 'form', or is comprised of a type of matter. It 'moves' through all dimensions which it has formed via big bangs. It is brain personified. It doesn't have to 'choose' as it is already doing it, creating life, energy, space. I can't really speculate much further than that....[/quote]