(October 29, 2013 at 1:25 pm)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: If god exists outside of time, then there is no time at which it could have created the universe.

Augustine was the first Christine theologian to write about God and time in any sort of depth. (confessions - Book 11). He concluded that God outside of time meant that creation was eternal, without start or end.

Which leads to all sorts of peculiar paradoxes Augustine did not forsee. If all is as it is and always has been, no change was ever possible, including God's acts, in such a Universe, God has no free will, neither can we have free will. I call this the "Flies in Amber" scenario. We are all trapped in an unchanging now forever like a fly trapped in amber

And as things are as they always have been and will never change, its hard to see how we can state God caused it to be that way,there is no before to allow cause of all to come about.

To abandon this out of time problem with its bizarre paradoxes, theism has to admit time exists and is outside God's control, time limits God, implying Einsteinian relativity limits God. Time, mass dimensionality and speed are all part of the nature of reality in an inter-related manner. Time is not isolated from everything else

This establishes naturalism is primary, preceding God and out of God's control.

A nice little problem for theism.

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(October 30, 2013 at 7:49 am)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: To abandon this out of time problem with its bizarre paradoxes, theism has to admit time exists and is outside God's control, time limits God, implying Einsteinian relativity limits God. Time, mass dimensionality and speed are all part of the nature of reality in an inter-related manner. Time is not isolated from everything else

This establishes naturalism is primary, preceding God and out of God's control.

A nice little problem for theism.

Unfortunately, I doubt it. I'll imagine they'll simply invoke 'god-time'

(October 30, 2013 at 9:50 am)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote:

(October 30, 2013 at 7:49 am)Cheerful Charlie Wrote: To abandon this out of time problem with its bizarre paradoxes, theism has to admit time exists and is outside God's control, time limits God, implying Einsteinian relativity limits God. Time, mass dimensionality and speed are all part of the nature of reality in an inter-related manner. Time is not isolated from everything else

This establishes naturalism is primary, preceding God and out of God's control.

A nice little problem for theism.

Unfortunately, I doubt it. I'll imagine they'll simply invoke 'god-time'

Apparently, most theologians now reject God out of time because they find the concept incomprehensible. But I cannot find any that then confront the problem of what is time and where does it come from, or its implications that naturalism is outside, beyond God, or limiting God. It seems to be ignored.


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Ok so if god is one unique physical object that existed before the universe and before time and you can't make the universe out of nothing what did god make the universe out of? Since there was nothing there for the physical being to use and no time in which for him to make it in.

(October 30, 2013 at 2:28 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Ok so if god is one unique physical object that existed before the universe and before time and you can't make the universe out of nothing what did god make the universe out of? Since there was nothing there for the physical being to use and no time in which for him to make it in.

I didn't say that God is a physical object (actually he cannot be)

Creating the universe out of what is something beyond our knowledge, we only know things by approximating them to what we observe in our Universe
Creating the universe is something that we can never understand.

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(October 30, 2013 at 10:32 am)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:

(October 30, 2013 at 9:50 am)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: Unfortunately, I doubt it. I'll imagine they'll simply invoke 'god-time'

Apparently, most theologians now reject God out of time because they find the concept incomprehensible. But I cannot find any that then confront the problem of what is time and where does it come from, or its implications that naturalism is outside, beyond God, or limiting God. It seems to be ignored.

Because most people don't know what is exactly time
by using the very simple "agreed" definition of mine, all make sense.

Quote:I didn't say that God is a physical object (actually he cannot be)

Creating the universe out of what is something beyond our knowledge, we only know things by approximating them to what we observe in our Universe
Creating the universe is something that we can never understand.

Well you just said something cannot come from nothing, god is not physical and has nothing existed before god created it (due to your definition of time, two events relating to one another).
You said even god cannot do something that is against logic and that something coming from nothing goes against logic therefore god could not have created the universe because he had nothing to create it from.

(November 3, 2013 at 7:21 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: Creating the universe out of what is something beyond our knowledge, we only know things by approximating them to what we observe in our Universe
Creating the universe is something that we can never understand.

bennyboy Wrote:

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This is still going?

God cannot exist in physical form? WTF! Then he is not powerful enough for me to follow!

(November 3, 2013 at 8:04 am)paulpablo Wrote:

Quote:I didn't say that God is a physical object (actually he cannot be)

Creating the universe out of what is something beyond our knowledge, we only know things by approximating them to what we observe in our Universe
Creating the universe is something that we can never understand.

Well you just said something cannot come from nothing, god is not physical and has nothing existed before god created it (due to your definition of time, two events relating to one another).
You said even god cannot do something that is against logic and that something coming from nothing goes against logic therefore god could not have created the universe because he had nothing to create it from.

Correction!
Nothing existed before God because God didn't have a start
Nothing "Variable" could exist with God as well in the begining
This logic doesn't deny the existence of other things with God as long as they are static/constants

(November 3, 2013 at 8:45 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: Correction!
Nothing existed before God because God didn't have a start
Nothing "Variable" could exist with God as well in the begining
This logic doesn't deny the existence of other things with God as long as they are static/constants

Sorry, that solves nothing. Either god created those other things (which still leaves the timeless state problem), or those things already existed (which means god did not create all things).