(November 12, 2013 at 1:51 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote:

(November 11, 2013 at 10:42 am)bennyboy Wrote: Time is the change of state of entities, of things, or of their properties.

Not quiet right, time can only be measured if you have at least two events, to measure one by the occurrences of the other
If you have only one event at a time, time is meaningless

You mean like the initial state of being and the end state of being? i.e. 2 events i.e. CHANGE. *facepalm*

I wrote

Quote: If water can exist at the beginning of time with god then this means that other entities could have existed with god as long as they were static.

Muslim scholar wrote

Quote:This is outside the scope of the proof

Such answers are found only by revelation.

But then earlier you wrote.

Quote:G must be one unit as if there are more than one entity time can be related to each other, but as time did not exist, then G is one UN-separated self-dependent unit
(The Eternal, The one, The self sufficient)

So before you said G must be one unit and there could not be another entity, now you have changed your mind and said there could be another entity that exists if it was static.

And you still haven't shown me where in the quran it does say the universe was made from water, there are only verses which say he made it from nothing.

I believe, paulpablo, he said that "nothing" is an incorrect translation, and that it better translates as something like "water."

However, water is hydrogen+oxygen, which require both space and time in which to exist, so making the universe OUT of it would be paradoxical. But it doesn't matter, and here's why: every statement that answers the philosophical question "Where's the beginning to it all? Why is there existence rather than no existence?" comes down to two possible answers: 1) I don't know, and I don't want to make stuff up; 2) conflating the terms of a paradox into one or more entities: "God is the one who can exist without time and space, and who can create without ever having been created! God is eternal and outside time, but regularly talks to people, instructs them, and otherwise acts within the bounds of time. God is the one whose greater vision makes the starvation of babies, which is clearly a great evil in the world, a Holy and divine goodness." In short: God is the one who makes all possible, even when it's clearly illogical.

(November 12, 2013 at 11:14 am)paulpablo Wrote: I wrote

Quote: If water can exist at the beginning of time with god then this means that other entities could have existed with god as long as they were static.

Muslim scholar wrote

Quote:This is outside the scope of the proof

Such answers are found only by revelation.

But then earlier you wrote.

Quote:G must be one unit as if there are more than one entity time can be related to each other, but as time did not exist, then G is one UN-separated self-dependent unit
(The Eternal, The one, The self sufficient)

So before you said G must be one unit and there could not be another entity, now you have changed your mind and said there could be another entity that exists if it was static.

And you still haven't shown me where in the quran it does say the universe was made from water, there are only verses which say he made it from nothing.

The two statements are different
When I said G is one unit, I mean that he is not parts, one part lead the action of another like humans (brain, organs, etc.)

The proof is about proving the existence of and external deity/starter to the universe
I cannot answer all questions from a logical proof, the proof is just leading to a conclusion; nothing more

As for the water thing, the water is mentioned in some Hadith of Prophet Mohamed, and mentioned in the Quran as well; but it not very clear if the water was the first thing that God created or God created other things from it

11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the Waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death," the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!"

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(November 12, 2013 at 8:28 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I believe, paulpablo, he said that "nothing" is an incorrect translation, and that it better translates as something like "water."

However, water is hydrogen+oxygen, which require both space and time in which to exist, so making the universe OUT of it would be paradoxical.

When god used the word "Water" it doesn't have to be H2O
It is just an approximation to what we don't know

Quote: But it doesn't matter, and here's why: every statement that answers the philosophical question "Where's the beginning to it all? Why is there existence rather than no existence?" comes down to two possible answers: 1) I don't know, and I don't want to make stuff up; 2) conflating the terms of a paradox into one or more entities: "God is the one who can exist without time and space, and who can create without ever having been created! God is eternal and outside time, but regularly talks to people, instructs them, and otherwise acts within the bounds of time. God is the one whose greater vision makes the starvation of babies, which is clearly a great evil in the world, a Holy and divine goodness." In short: God is the one who makes all possible, even when it's clearly illogical.

You are taking a big leap here
It is proven that the universe must had a creator
It is all by Logic and even God cannot defy Logic

You need either to refute the proof or accept it

Quote:When god used the word "Water" it doesn't have to be H2O

So when god says water he doesn't mean water.

When god says "out of nothing" he doesn't actually mean out of nothing.

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Quote:God would bring forth a new creation in order to sin (and repent) so that He would forgive them.”

He (the person asking) then said, “Messenger of God, what was the creation made of?” He (the Prophet) replied, “Water.”

This is the full verse, you left out the bit which makes it obvious god isn't talking about the creation of the universe from water. He's talking about creating a person in order for that person to sin in order to then be forgiven.

(November 17, 2013 at 7:47 am)paulpablo Wrote:

Quote:When god used the word "Water" it doesn't have to be H2O

So when god says water he doesn't mean water.

When god says "out of nothing" he doesn't actually mean out of nothing.

Yes,
When God talkes about something beyond the universe, it doesn't mean exactly what we know
Only some similarity to the word

Quote:This verse tends to imply then that there was 3 things in the beginning, god, water and a throne. But then again the word throne probably doesn't mean throne, knowing how the quran works. Words don't actually mean what they say.

Exactly, everything outside the universe is unique it is not similar to anything we know

Quote:11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the Waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death," the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!"

This quote doesn't imply he made the universe from water either, it just says his throne was on some water at some point, doesn't give a time specification.

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Quote:Yes,
When God talkes about something beyond the universe, it doesn't mean exactly what we know
Only some similarity to the word

How can you say this water is beyond the universe, according to you the universe is made from this water.

Which as I've already shown isn't mentioned in any hadith or quran verse that you have shown me.

The other verse you have shown me.

Quote:God would bring forth a new creation in order to sin (and repent) so that He would forgive them.”

He (the person asking) then said, “Messenger of God, what was the creation made of?” He (the Prophet) replied, “Water.”

Clearly not about a universe, it's about the creation of a person.

(November 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote:

(November 17, 2013 at 7:47 am)paulpablo Wrote: So when god says water he doesn't mean water.

When god says "out of nothing" he doesn't actually mean out of nothing.

Yes,
When God talkes about something beyond the universe, it doesn't mean exactly what we know
Only some similarity to the word

Quote:This verse tends to imply then that there was 3 things in the beginning, god, water and a throne. But then again the word throne probably doesn't mean throne, knowing how the quran works. Words don't actually mean what they say.

Exactly, everything outside the universe is unique it is not similar to anything we know

You can't possibly know any of this - you have no experience with it, you have no evidence of it.
You have thrown reason out the window.

(November 20, 2013 at 1:22 pm)Chas Wrote:

(November 17, 2013 at 8:00 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: Yes,
When God talkes about something beyond the universe, it doesn't mean exactly what we know
Only some similarity to the word

Exactly, everything outside the universe is unique it is not similar to anything we know

You can't possibly know any of this - you have no experience with it, you have no evidence of it.
You have thrown reason out the window.

Exactly,
Science or observation cannot know anything about what is outside
Only logic can be used and the proof is based only on logic that is why it is irrefutable

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(November 17, 2013 at 8:10 am)paulpablo Wrote:

Quote:11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the Waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death," the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!"

This quote doesn't imply he made the universe from water either, it just says his throne was on some water at some point, doesn't give a time specification.

Yes, it is not very clear if this water existed or God created it, or created the universe from it
Most Islamic Scholars says it was the first creation, then God's throne then the universe

(November 21, 2013 at 1:33 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote:

(November 20, 2013 at 1:22 pm)Chas Wrote: You can't possibly know any of this - you have no experience with it, you have no evidence of it.
You have thrown reason out the window.

Exactly,
Science or observation cannot know anything about what is outside
Only logic can be used and the proof is based only on logic that is why it is irrefutable

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(November 17, 2013 at 8:10 am)paulpablo Wrote: This quote doesn't imply he made the universe from water either, it just says his throne was on some water at some point, doesn't give a time specification.

Yes, it is not very clear if this water existed or God created it, or created the universe from it
Most Islamic Scholars says it was the first creation, then God's throne then the universe

And it still doesn't say anywhere that god did create the universe from water in any hadith or in any part of the quran that I've read.