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Quote:Israeli forces reportedly shot and killed a 15-year-old Palestinian boy as he stood outside of a school in the al-Jalazoun refugee camp Saturday afternoon.
Quote:An unnamed Israeli army source told Israeli news site Walla that “a unit from the Givati Brigade was operating in the camp in order to locate stone throwers. During the course of their operations, a violent incident developed while soldiers were attempting to arrest a suspect. They shot in the air and for an unknown reason the youth was shot.”
From this I can only conclude that the heroes of the IDF missed "the air."
December 27, 2013 at 1:10 am (This post was last modified: December 27, 2013 at 1:13 am by Snidely Whiplash.)
(December 26, 2013 at 8:49 pm)Snidely Whiplash Wrote:
Quote:How superficial are your notions of race?
I already told you already, Puss Nuts. I don't believe in race. Neither do educated folk such as geneticists. Those who do believe in race do so for their own special reasons, like the Nazis, the Japanese, and the Jews. People who are 100% believers of an Abrahamic religion or race predominantly believe they are superior to non-believers.
Quote:Israeli forces reportedly shot and killed a 15-year-old Palestinian boy as he stood outside of a school in the al-Jalazoun refugee camp Saturday afternoon.
Quote:An unnamed Israeli army source told Israeli news site Walla that “a unit from the Givati Brigade was operating in the camp in order to locate stone throwers. During the course of their operations, a violent incident developed while soldiers were attempting to arrest a suspect. They shot in the air and for an unknown reason the youth was shot.”
From this I can only conclude that the heroes of the IDF missed "the air."
December 27, 2013 at 2:12 am (This post was last modified: December 27, 2013 at 2:56 am by là bạn điên.)
It is very difficult for people to be objective in this debate. It tends to be a left-right thing for various reasons but it was not always so.
I am marginally more pro Israel. Firstly I had a Jewish grandfather and secondly I identify with Israelis as being more 'like me' in their cultural attitudes than Arabs, generally, ironically this is also Why I identify more with Israels' great Enemy, the Assad government of Syria than I do with their opponents. These are not, however objective arguments.
What to me is objective is that the demonstration of Israel is seriously out of proportion to its sins and that its detractors ignore vastly worse actions elsewhere. This inherrant hypocrisy of Islam and the Left says more about them, though, than it does about Israel/Palestine.
The Original intent of Zionism was to start a Multicultural state within Palestine which was then part of the Ottoman Empire. Jews started buying land in fairly large numbers , mostly from absentee Ottoman landowners, and settlement started under Ottoman rule.
Early settlers found themselves under attack from their muslim neighbours. No doubt some of them would have been fellaheen, ie Arab peasants who rented the land from the landlords and now found the land had been sold and had lost their jobs. In other cases it will just be the xenophobic bigotry that all peasant cultures exhibit. In any case by the first world war any possibility of joint territory was now forgotten.
With the end of WW1 Turkey was no longer in control of the region and the UK and France became the Guardians of the region as an interrim step to self government and the trouble really started.
France had a rather sensible plan to divide its mandate of what is now Syria and Lebanon into separate Christian, Sunni, Shiaa and Druze states; unfortunately Arab nationalists who wanted a single Arab state governed from Baghdad effectively vetoed the plan and Arab nationalists started to openly support and emulate the growing fascist movements in Europe.
Repression from the Nazis lead to considerable numbers of new Jewish immigrants to Palestine with a massive influx from Europe which, although opposed by the UK, managed, nevertheless, to get through a blockade.
By 1947 the New United Nations took over the League of Nations mandates and decided to break up the mandates to form viable states. There was already a massive Jewish presence and it would have been an impossibility, especially in the light of the Holocaust and the Nuremburg trials to do anything about them it was clear that their had to be a political solution that allocated territory to each of the ethnic groups -Jews and Arabs.
The UN voted for partition and the creation of Israel along these lines:
< Picture of UN partition plan>
Immediately that Israel declared itself a state an Arab 'liberation army' then attacked it. a a firece cvil war broke out with the infamous attack by the Lehi terrorist group and the Irgun on Deir Yassin which lead to massive panic amongst Palestinian settlers and almost 3/4 of a million of them fled to neighboring countries. The Israeli militias defeated the Arab force but then ere faced with attacks from the Regular armies of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. Jordan had the most effective army but was only really interested in securing its own claims to the west bank and by 1949 Israel had brought the Arab nations to a ceasefire, new lines were demarcated but the local Arabs refused to accept the situation and the PLO was started. In 1956, 67 and 73 Arab Armies have attempted to destroy Israel and Israel has taken territory in response however Egypt came to a peace deal in 1980 and Israel returned the Sinai to it. Jordan was already indebted to Israel for its guarantees against Syrian invasion during the attempted Palestinian coup in 1974 ( Black September). On each victor Israel offered land back to the Palestinians for peace. They always refused.
The Palestinians shot themselves in the foot by backing the losing side in the Cold War (ie the Soviet Black) and carrying out terrorist acts in Europe. They were the darlings of the left but objects of contempt for most Western governments. Corrupt to the core they have constantly refused any chance of lasting peace and have now lead most Israelis to believe that such peace is now impossible.
Israel is now carrying out a 'slowly boil the frog' approach. It is very gradually taking over Palestinian territory at 1-2% a year. Expulsions of a couple of families here or there several times a month no longer make world news. Constant rocket attacks and attacks on Israeli citizens have vastly eroded much Sympathy for the Palestinian cause and the sight of Palestinians dancing and cheering at 9/11 have alienated the US for another generation.
Where we are now:
Israel cannot be gotten rid of. There is no Arab force willing and capable of defeating Israel. Nowadays land invasions need overwhelming odds and even in the event of a Shia coalition of Iran,Iraq and Syria deciding to invade the Israelis would have no trouble holding the Golan heights, reinforced as it is and the three countries would bankrupt themselves in the process. Isn't going to happen.
The UN passes resolutions against Israel on a monotonous basis. No one outside the Muslim / Socialist world cares and no one can use those to do anything.
Israel is NOT going to just vote itself out of existence which for some odd reason many socialists thinks is a possibility. Many also seem to think that like South Africa Israel is suddenly going to declare a single county where all palestinians can vote and impose an Arab government over a united country. Isralis are obviously NOT going to vote for that.
So Israel can not be defeated militarily. It cannot be defeated by Muslims demanding in the UN, the Western powers are not going to act against israel ,it is not going to vote itself out of existence and it is vastly more powerful than the Palestinians.
The real question is : What can the Palestinians do to ACTUALLY get their own country because all of their strategies so far has ended in them getting less and less land every year. Israel has already abandoned the Gaza strip and it might just leave a smidgen of the Westbank,but don;t hope on it. By the end of this century the way things are going there will be no Palestinians in the West bank.
All we get from The Palestinians, the Leftist and Muslim allies is 'do more of the same' which since it has been such a failure seems a little odd.
Any ally of the United States that was this prejudiced based on a genetic/religious basis against some of its citizens / local inhabitants would be hugely ridiculed by the left. The Left in the US has been quite docile when it comes to Israel until recently.
The reason that Israel gets so much attention is because its main ally is the global superpower and others resent that relationship. If Israel was alone in the region and doing its thing without the US relationship no one would care. (and it wouldn't win so much.)
(December 27, 2013 at 2:12 am)là bạn điên Wrote: It is very difficult for people to be objective in this debate. It tends to be a left-right thing for various reasons but it was not always so.
I am marginally more pro Israel. Firstly I had a Jewish grandfather and secondly I identify with Israelis as being more 'like me' in their cultural attitudes than Arabs, generally, ironically this is also Why I identify more with Israels' great Enemy, the Assad government of Syria than I do with their opponents. These are not, however objective arguments.
What to me is objective is that the demonstration of Israel is seriously out of proportion to its sins and that its detractors ignore vastly worse actions elsewhere. This inherrant hypocrisy of Islam and the Left says more about them, though, than it does about Israel/Palestine.
The Original intent of Zionism was to start a Multicultural state within Palestine which was then part of the Ottoman Empire. Jews started buying land in fairly large numbers , mostly from absentee Ottoman landowners, and settlement started under Ottoman rule.
Early settlers found themselves under attack from their muslim neighbours. No doubt some of them would have been fellaheen, ie Arab peasants who rented the land from the landlords and now found the land had been sold and had lost their jobs. In other cases it will just be the xenophobic bigotry that all peasant cultures exhibit. In any case by the first world war any possibility of joint territory was now forgotten.
With the end of WW1 Turkey was no longer in control of the region and the UK and France became the Guardians of the region as an interrim step to self government and the trouble really started.
France had a rather sensible plan to divide its mandate of what is now Syria and Lebanon into separate Christian, Sunni, Shiaa and Druze states; unfortunately Arab nationalists who wanted a single Arab state governed from Baghdad effectively vetoed the plan and Arab nationalists started to openly support and emulate the growing fascist movements in Europe.
Repression from the Nazis lead to considerable numbers of new Jewish immigrants to Palestine with a massive influx from Europe which, although opposed by the UK, managed, nevertheless, to get through a blockade.
By 1947 the New United Nations took over the League of Nations mandates and decided to break up the mandates to form viable states. There was already a massive Jewish presence and it would have been an impossibility, especially in the light of the Holocaust and the Nuremburg trials to do anything about them it was clear that their had to be a political solution that allocated territory to each of the ethnic groups -Jews and Arabs.
The UN voted for partition and the creation of Israel along these lines:
< Picture of UN partition plan>
Immediately that Israel declared itself a state an Arab 'liberation army' then attacked it. a a firece cvil war broke out with the infamous attack by the Lehi terrorist group and the Irgun on Deir Yassin which lead to massive panic amongst Palestinian settlers and almost 3/4 of a million of them fled to neighboring countries. The Israeli militias defeated the Arab force but then ere faced with attacks from the Regular armies of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. Jordan had the most effective army but was only really interested in securing its own claims to the west bank and by 1949 Israel had brought the Arab nations to a ceasefire, new lines were demarcated but the local Arabs refused to accept the situation and the PLO was started. In 1956, 67 and 73 Arab Armies have attempted to destroy Israel and Israel has taken territory in response however Egypt came to a peace deal in 1980 and Israel returned the Sinai to it. Jordan was already indebted to Israel for its guarantees against Syrian invasion during the attempted Palestinian coup in 1974 ( Black September). On each victor Israel offered land back to the Palestinians for peace. They always refused.
The Palestinians shot themselves in the foot by backing the losing side in the Cold War (ie the Soviet Black) and carrying out terrorist acts in Europe. They were the darlings of the left but objects of contempt for most Western governments. Corrupt to the core they have constantly refused any chance of lasting peace and have now lead most Israelis to believe that such peace is now impossible.
Israel is now carrying out a 'slowly boil the frog' approach. It is very gradually taking over Palestinian territory at 1-2% a year. Expulsions of a couple of families here or there several times a month no longer make world news. Constant rocket attacks and attacks on Israeli citizens have vastly eroded much Sympathy for the Palestinian cause and the sight of Palestinians dancing and cheering at 9/11 have alienated the US for another generation.
Where we are now:
Israel cannot be gotten rid of. There is no Arab force willing and capable of defeating Israel. Nowadays land invasions need overwhelming odds and even in the event of a Shia coalition of Iran,Iraq and Syria deciding to invade the Israelis would have no trouble holding the Golan heights, reinforced as it is and the three countries would bankrupt themselves in the process. Isn't going to happen.
The UN passes resolutions against Israel on a monotonous basis. No one outside the Muslim / Socialist world cares and no one can use those to do anything.
Israel is NOT going to just vote itself out of existence which for some odd reason many socialists thinks is a possibility. Many also seem to think that like South Africa Israel is suddenly going to declare a single county where all palestinians can vote and impose an Arab government over a united country. Isralis are obviously NOT going to vote for that.
So Israel can not be defeated militarily. It cannot be defeated by Muslims demanding in the UN, the Western powers are not going to act against israel ,it is not going to vote itself out of existence and it is vastly more powerful than the Palestinians.
The real question is : What can the Palestinians do to ACTUALLY get their own country because all of their strategies so far has ended in them getting less and less land every year. Israel has already abandoned the Gaza strip and it might just leave a smidgen of the Westbank,but don;t hope on it. By the end of this century the way things are going there will be no Palestinians in the West bank.
All we get from The Palestinians, the Leftist and Muslim allies is 'do more of the same' which since it has been such a failure seems a little odd.
December 27, 2013 at 7:12 am (This post was last modified: December 27, 2013 at 7:16 am by là bạn điên.)
(December 27, 2013 at 2:55 am)theyear12013 Wrote: Any ally of the United States that was this prejudiced based on a genetic/religious basis against some of its citizens / local inhabitants would be hugely ridiculed by the left. The Left in the US has been quite docile when it comes to Israel until recently.
The reason that Israel gets so much attention is because its main ally is the global superpower and others resent that relationship. If Israel was alone in the region and doing its thing without the US relationship no one would care. (and it wouldn't win so much.)
There is truth here, If Israel waved a red flag then the left would be at the forefront to defend them.
(December 27, 2013 at 3:11 am)Snidely Whiplash Wrote:
(December 27, 2013 at 2:12 am)là bạn điên Wrote: It is very difficult for people to be objective in this debate. It tends to be a left-right thing for various reasons but it was not always so.
I am marginally more pro Israel. Firstly I had a Jewish grandfather and secondly I identify with Israelis as being more 'like me' in their cultural attitudes than Arabs, generally, ironically this is also Why I identify more with Israels' great Enemy, the Assad government of Syria than I do with their opponents. These are not, however objective arguments.
What to me is objective is that the demonstration of Israel is seriously out of proportion to its sins and that its detractors ignore vastly worse actions elsewhere. This inherrant hypocrisy of Islam and the Left says more about them, though, than it does about Israel/Palestine.
The Original intent of Zionism was to start a Multicultural state within Palestine which was then part of the Ottoman Empire. Jews started buying land in fairly large numbers , mostly from absentee Ottoman landowners, and settlement started under Ottoman rule.
Early settlers found themselves under attack from their muslim neighbours. No doubt some of them would have been fellaheen, ie Arab peasants who rented the land from the landlords and now found the land had been sold and had lost their jobs. In other cases it will just be the xenophobic bigotry that all peasant cultures exhibit. In any case by the first world war any possibility of joint territory was now forgotten.
With the end of WW1 Turkey was no longer in control of the region and the UK and France became the Guardians of the region as an interrim step to self government and the trouble really started.
France had a rather sensible plan to divide its mandate of what is now Syria and Lebanon into separate Christian, Sunni, Shiaa and Druze states; unfortunately Arab nationalists who wanted a single Arab state governed from Baghdad effectively vetoed the plan and Arab nationalists started to openly support and emulate the growing fascist movements in Europe.
Repression from the Nazis lead to considerable numbers of new Jewish immigrants to Palestine with a massive influx from Europe which, although opposed by the UK, managed, nevertheless, to get through a blockade.
By 1947 the New United Nations took over the League of Nations mandates and decided to break up the mandates to form viable states. There was already a massive Jewish presence and it would have been an impossibility, especially in the light of the Holocaust and the Nuremburg trials to do anything about them it was clear that their had to be a political solution that allocated territory to each of the ethnic groups -Jews and Arabs.
The UN voted for partition and the creation of Israel along these lines:
< Picture of UN partition plan>
Immediately that Israel declared itself a state an Arab 'liberation army' then attacked it. a a firece cvil war broke out with the infamous attack by the Lehi terrorist group and the Irgun on Deir Yassin which lead to massive panic amongst Palestinian settlers and almost 3/4 of a million of them fled to neighboring countries. The Israeli militias defeated the Arab force but then ere faced with attacks from the Regular armies of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. Jordan had the most effective army but was only really interested in securing its own claims to the west bank and by 1949 Israel had brought the Arab nations to a ceasefire, new lines were demarcated but the local Arabs refused to accept the situation and the PLO was started. In 1956, 67 and 73 Arab Armies have attempted to destroy Israel and Israel has taken territory in response however Egypt came to a peace deal in 1980 and Israel returned the Sinai to it. Jordan was already indebted to Israel for its guarantees against Syrian invasion during the attempted Palestinian coup in 1974 ( Black September). On each victor Israel offered land back to the Palestinians for peace. They always refused.
The Palestinians shot themselves in the foot by backing the losing side in the Cold War (ie the Soviet Black) and carrying out terrorist acts in Europe. They were the darlings of the left but objects of contempt for most Western governments. Corrupt to the core they have constantly refused any chance of lasting peace and have now lead most Israelis to believe that such peace is now impossible.
Israel is now carrying out a 'slowly boil the frog' approach. It is very gradually taking over Palestinian territory at 1-2% a year. Expulsions of a couple of families here or there several times a month no longer make world news. Constant rocket attacks and attacks on Israeli citizens have vastly eroded much Sympathy for the Palestinian cause and the sight of Palestinians dancing and cheering at 9/11 have alienated the US for another generation.
Where we are now:
Israel cannot be gotten rid of. There is no Arab force willing and capable of defeating Israel. Nowadays land invasions need overwhelming odds and even in the event of a Shia coalition of Iran,Iraq and Syria deciding to invade the Israelis would have no trouble holding the Golan heights, reinforced as it is and the three countries would bankrupt themselves in the process. Isn't going to happen.
The UN passes resolutions against Israel on a monotonous basis. No one outside the Muslim / Socialist world cares and no one can use those to do anything.
Israel is NOT going to just vote itself out of existence which for some odd reason many socialists thinks is a possibility. Many also seem to think that like South Africa Israel is suddenly going to declare a single county where all palestinians can vote and impose an Arab government over a united country. Isralis are obviously NOT going to vote for that.
So Israel can not be defeated militarily. It cannot be defeated by Muslims demanding in the UN, the Western powers are not going to act against israel ,it is not going to vote itself out of existence and it is vastly more powerful than the Palestinians.
The real question is : What can the Palestinians do to ACTUALLY get their own country because all of their strategies so far has ended in them getting less and less land every year. Israel has already abandoned the Gaza strip and it might just leave a smidgen of the Westbank,but don;t hope on it. By the end of this century the way things are going there will be no Palestinians in the West bank.
All we get from The Palestinians, the Leftist and Muslim allies is 'do more of the same' which since it has been such a failure seems a little odd.
(December 27, 2013 at 3:11 am)Snidely Whiplash Wrote:
(December 27, 2013 at 2:12 am)là bạn điên Wrote: It is very difficult for people to be objective in this debate. It tends to be a left-right thing for various reasons but it was not always so.
I am marginally more pro Israel. Firstly I had a Jewish grandfather and secondly I identify with Israelis as being more 'like me' in their cultural attitudes than Arabs, generally, ironically this is also Why I identify more with Israels' great Enemy, the Assad government of Syria than I do with their opponents. These are not, however objective arguments.
What to me is objective is that the demonstration of Israel is seriously out of proportion to its sins and that its detractors ignore vastly worse actions elsewhere. This inherrant hypocrisy of Islam and the Left says more about them, though, than it does about Israel/Palestine.
The Original intent of Zionism was to start a Multicultural state within Palestine which was then part of the Ottoman Empire. Jews started buying land in fairly large numbers , mostly from absentee Ottoman landowners, and settlement started under Ottoman rule.
Early settlers found themselves under attack from their muslim neighbours. No doubt some of them would have been fellaheen, ie Arab peasants who rented the land from the landlords and now found the land had been sold and had lost their jobs. In other cases it will just be the xenophobic bigotry that all peasant cultures exhibit. In any case by the first world war any possibility of joint territory was now forgotten.
With the end of WW1 Turkey was no longer in control of the region and the UK and France became the Guardians of the region as an interrim step to self government and the trouble really started.
France had a rather sensible plan to divide its mandate of what is now Syria and Lebanon into separate Christian, Sunni, Shiaa and Druze states; unfortunately Arab nationalists who wanted a single Arab state governed from Baghdad effectively vetoed the plan and Arab nationalists started to openly support and emulate the growing fascist movements in Europe.
Repression from the Nazis lead to considerable numbers of new Jewish immigrants to Palestine with a massive influx from Europe which, although opposed by the UK, managed, nevertheless, to get through a blockade.
By 1947 the New United Nations took over the League of Nations mandates and decided to break up the mandates to form viable states. There was already a massive Jewish presence and it would have been an impossibility, especially in the light of the Holocaust and the Nuremburg trials to do anything about them it was clear that their had to be a political solution that allocated territory to each of the ethnic groups -Jews and Arabs.
The UN voted for partition and the creation of Israel along these lines:
< Picture of UN partition plan>
Immediately that Israel declared itself a state an Arab 'liberation army' then attacked it. a a firece cvil war broke out with the infamous attack by the Lehi terrorist group and the Irgun on Deir Yassin which lead to massive panic amongst Palestinian settlers and almost 3/4 of a million of them fled to neighboring countries. The Israeli militias defeated the Arab force but then ere faced with attacks from the Regular armies of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. Jordan had the most effective army but was only really interested in securing its own claims to the west bank and by 1949 Israel had brought the Arab nations to a ceasefire, new lines were demarcated but the local Arabs refused to accept the situation and the PLO was started. In 1956, 67 and 73 Arab Armies have attempted to destroy Israel and Israel has taken territory in response however Egypt came to a peace deal in 1980 and Israel returned the Sinai to it. Jordan was already indebted to Israel for its guarantees against Syrian invasion during the attempted Palestinian coup in 1974 ( Black September). On each victor Israel offered land back to the Palestinians for peace. They always refused.
The Palestinians shot themselves in the foot by backing the losing side in the Cold War (ie the Soviet Black) and carrying out terrorist acts in Europe. They were the darlings of the left but objects of contempt for most Western governments. Corrupt to the core they have constantly refused any chance of lasting peace and have now lead most Israelis to believe that such peace is now impossible.
Israel is now carrying out a 'slowly boil the frog' approach. It is very gradually taking over Palestinian territory at 1-2% a year. Expulsions of a couple of families here or there several times a month no longer make world news. Constant rocket attacks and attacks on Israeli citizens have vastly eroded much Sympathy for the Palestinian cause and the sight of Palestinians dancing and cheering at 9/11 have alienated the US for another generation.
Where we are now:
Israel cannot be gotten rid of. There is no Arab force willing and capable of defeating Israel. Nowadays land invasions need overwhelming odds and even in the event of a Shia coalition of Iran,Iraq and Syria deciding to invade the Israelis would have no trouble holding the Golan heights, reinforced as it is and the three countries would bankrupt themselves in the process. Isn't going to happen.
The UN passes resolutions against Israel on a monotonous basis. No one outside the Muslim / Socialist world cares and no one can use those to do anything.
Israel is NOT going to just vote itself out of existence which for some odd reason many socialists thinks is a possibility. Many also seem to think that like South Africa Israel is suddenly going to declare a single county where all palestinians can vote and impose an Arab government over a united country. Isralis are obviously NOT going to vote for that.
So Israel can not be defeated militarily. It cannot be defeated by Muslims demanding in the UN, the Western powers are not going to act against israel ,it is not going to vote itself out of existence and it is vastly more powerful than the Palestinians.
The real question is : What can the Palestinians do to ACTUALLY get their own country because all of their strategies so far has ended in them getting less and less land every year. Israel has already abandoned the Gaza strip and it might just leave a smidgen of the Westbank,but don;t hope on it. By the end of this century the way things are going there will be no Palestinians in the West bank.
All we get from The Palestinians, the Leftist and Muslim allies is 'do more of the same' which since it has been such a failure seems a little odd.
Counterpunch is a very unpleasant publication aimed at where the extreme right and left meet. it is repulsively antisemitic and has articles by open Neo Nazis Like Eric Wahlburg, Holocaust deniers like Alexander Cokburn and Alison Weirs utterly unfounded libel that Israelis were selling off the organs of Palestinian children.
Quote:Guness told Israel National News that he could not be sure that white phosphorus had been used, but added, "According to our international staff members, who were eyewitnesses, it looks like phosphorus, it smells like phosphorus and it burns like phosphorus." He called for an international probe into the attack.
