(January 15, 2014 at 1:08 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(January 15, 2014 at 12:46 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: I would say instead that the universe does not preclude evolutionary processes under certain local conditions.

That's kind of the idea, these local conditions exist because the universe is precisely set in such a way for these local condition to exist in the first place, matter, planets, stars, galaxies all the necessary elements and so on. As far as the creation of life and civilization is concerned that's all God needed to do you just have to set the ball rolling, all the natural processes in motion. This doesn't have to be deism either as there would be nothing stopping this intelligence behind the creation of the universe from revealing himself to the creatures he intentionally made. I'll grant you that it's still technically possible that all of this was an immense fluke of pure blind coincidence but we're going to disagree on whether it actually is.

Yes, creation myths are as old as written texts. The problem is that they are always wrong because they were posited by people who were ignorant of the facts, similar to your speculation about a Creator. Who says it is blind coincidence? The laws of physics don't need a God to be ordered in such a way; as it seems, these laws are the only constants possible for our universe to exist. Perhaps other universes with other laws exist too. Why not put your "faith" in math and stop there? It's worked out pretty well for us thus far.

(January 15, 2014 at 2:04 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Yes, creation myths are as old as written texts. The problem is that they are always wrong because they were posited by people who were ignorant of the facts, similar to your speculation about a Creator. Who says it is blind coincidence? The laws of physics don't need a God to be ordered in such a way; as it seems, these laws are the only constants possible for our universe to exist. Perhaps other universes with other laws exist too. Why not put your "faith" in math and stop there? It's worked out pretty well for us thus far.

Of course they were wrong/ignorant about the scientific details of the actual processes involved but the general idea is that you have a period of formation in stages which originates from a deliberate point of creation by a single supreme intelligence. The evolution of the various different forms of life on Earth can therefore just be a part of the overall process of formation so there isn't really an issue with it. Every culture had their own creation myths of course, the one that eventually ended up in the Torah/Bible developed in the near East. But it can still be a revelation from God which contained certain truths separate to science but providing a context to what we understand through science.

I suppose you could have an infinite number of multiple universes each with their own unique laws of physics and we happen to be in the one that's right for life if that's you want to believe, but we're not in "the truth is staring you in the face!" territory. Even the Pope accepts in evolution as factual truth of reality.

Quote:On the subject of evolution you do realize the process only occurred because the universe was perfectly arranged for the process to occur in the first place?

What a fucking idiot this one is.

[quote='Minimalist' pid='583702' dateline='1389812098']

Quote:What a fucking idiot this one is.

The formation/evolution of life won't have been something that just randomly occurred if the universe was deliberately created with this in mind to begin with. There is no reason why the universe couldn't have been a deliberate creation by God so you can't use evolution to support a non-belief in God. You can still choose to not believe in God but you can't use evolution to support your case. If you do this you may end up fueling the Young Earth Creationist movement so it's better if you don't. Keep evolution entirely out of the argument as a separate subject.

In the vast ( and I mean VAST) majority of the universe you would be dead the moment you set foot there.

Even this planet is largely inhospitable to human life. Your intelligent designer comes across as something of an inept asshole.

Time to grow up and face reality.

(January 15, 2014 at 2:53 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Of course they were wrong/ignorant about the scientific details of the actual processes involved but the general idea is that you have a period of formation in stages which originates from a deliberate point of creation by a single supreme intelligence.

Of course it is the general idea. When you look at the moon, you can probably see a man's face. When you look at various cloud formations, you might see objects or faces that are familiar to you. That's how the brain works-- it is called the facial recognition module. When people tried to conceive origin stories, they also featured anthropomorphic deities, with human characteristics and emotions.

Quote:The evolution of the various different forms of life on Earth can therefore just be a part of the overall process of formation so there isn't really an issue with it.

So much for that whole "the wages of sin is death" bit though, right? You know, microbes died too. Was that a penalty for their sins?

Quote: Every culture had their own creation myths of course, the one that eventually ended up in the Torah/Bible developed in the near East. But it can still be a revelation from God which contained certain truths separate to science but providing a context to what we understand through science.

Except that it offers us no context beyond its blend of prior Mesopotamian myths that dominated the culture. In what context is there an ocean of water above the "firmament" (you know, that thing that is supposed to contain the Sun, the moon, the stars, and light)? If anything, the biblical account of creation only impeded scientific knowledge, since as St. Augustine suggested (and later echoed by Martin Luther), "Whatever the nature of the waters [above the firmament], we must believe in them, for the authority of Scripture is greater than the capacity of man's mind."

Quote:I suppose you could have an infinite number of multiple universes each with their own unique laws of physics and we happen to be in the one that's right for life if that's you want to believe,

No, I don't want to believe anything. I simply want a justified confidence in any given theory that best describes and accounts for all the facts we have apprehended.

Quote:but we're not in "the truth is staring you in the face!" territory. Even the Pope accepts in evolution as factual truth of reality.

Who cares what the Pope says. He also endorses Original Sin, which is part of a tale rendered completely nonsensical in light of our biological heritage.

(January 15, 2014 at 3:15 pm)Minimalist Wrote: In the vast ( and I mean VAST) majority of the universe you would be dead the moment you set foot there.

You would have to set foot on a planet with the right atmospheric composition air pressure and that kind of thing, or wear a space suit at least. But a universe that can support/develop life in every part may not even be functionally/scientifically possible to create in the first place we just don't know so this is a non-argument from ignorance.

Even though life is be confined to survival within a narrow band of physical conditions intelligent life is apparently be able to adapt itself to almost any environment including space. We ought to be running around naked on the Savannah being eaten by lions, but because as we're made "in Gods image" we can do a great deal more we're not limited by our environment. So while you can still be an atheist and that's a valid position you can't use the universe itself and what we know of it to support your world view as this would work perfectly well as a deliberate creation of an omnipotent creator God or as a random physical byproduct of some kind that just happened to be the way it is for no real significant reason.

Quote:Even this planet is largely inhospitable to human life.

We can survive anywhere on the planets surface even down the deepest ocean trench, yes in a submersible vehicle but if our intellect/adaptability to the natural world is derived from being made in the mental/spiritual image of God that will still count. Yes so we evolved but if this form of evolution was intentionally set up from the beginning then we were intentionally made. We didn't have be directly or instantly made by God in the Adam and Eve sense. A lengthy process of gradual/natural formation is perfectly fine and you can read Genesis as a process of formation in a sequence of stages leading up to intelligent beings.

Genesis wasn't necessarily written as a literal scientific/historical account to begin with as it seems quite heavily symbolic and full of metaphor and there were certainly theologians who read it this way even back in the early centuries AD. Read it in this context and you won't find any problems with it as a theist. Most theists accept evolution so there isn't really a conflict there only what you and young Earthers would want to manufacture to support whatever you/they want to believe. So I can't really stress the compatibility of the Biblical creation account and evolution/biology. From one source you get the how and from the other source the why.

Quote:Your intelligent designer comes across as something of an inept asshole.

That's not really the case when you understand the level of complexity and fine tuning that would allow for life in a universe such as this to occur. What you're looking at here is the work of a master craftsman, the ultimate mathematician and scientist. If you can see the beauty if the creation you have a master artist as well, a God worthy of worship. There are various negative aspects of life as well but there good theological explanations for that. You will get into sin, freedom of will and the general physical frailty of the human form and it's susceptibility to death. From a theistic stand point suffering is temporal and life eternal anyway of course.

Quote:Time to grow up and face reality.

God is perfectly compatible with the reality and suffering of human life and the reality of science. So you have nothing there to support the case against the existence of God. Your own opinion that he doesn't exist or you don't want to believe he exists is fine but these kinds of arguments from evil and human/natural suffering don't really hold much water. And you certainly can't use evolution to support your case even Darwin says something about God setting up the universe to allow for evolution to take place in his Origin of Species.

^ Wow, this guy... the extent to which people will think through their delusion, entirely devoid of rationale, is almost baffling.

(January 15, 2014 at 4:40 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(January 15, 2014 at 3:15 pm)Minimalist Wrote: In the vast ( and I mean VAST) majority of the universe you would be dead the moment you set foot there.

You would have to set foot on a planet with the right atmospheric composition air pressure and that kind of thing, or wear a space suit at least. But a universe that can support/develop life in every part may not even be functionally/scientifically possible to create in the first place we just don't know so this is a non-argument from ignorance.

You just don't know if this universe was made by a god (let alone your god), so any argument from you is a "non-argument from ignorance"...

wow... that was simple!

(January 15, 2014 at 4:40 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: Even though life is be confined to survival within a narrow band of physical conditions intelligent life is apparently be able to adapt itself to almost any environment including space. We ought to be running around naked on the Savannah being eaten by lions, but because as we're made "in Gods image" we can do a great deal more we're not limited by our environment. So while you can still be an atheist and that's a valid position you can't use the universe itself and what we know of it to support your world view as this would work perfectly well as a deliberate creation of an omnipotent creator God or as a random physical byproduct of some kind that just happened to be the way it is for no real significant reason.

Well, duh!!
Add magic and anything is possible... Even physics! Quantum mechanics! General Relativity!

(January 15, 2014 at 4:40 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: So I can't really stress the compatibility of the Biblical creation account and evolution/biology. From one source you get the how and from the other source the why.

"the why"?
Oh, you mean the "it's built custom made for us" thing?
Why must there be a thinking entity generating a reason for our existence?

(January 15, 2014 at 4:40 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

Quote:Your intelligent designer comes across as something of an inept asshole.

That's not really the case when you understand the level of complexity and fine tuning that would allow for life in a universe such as this to occur.

Do tell us all about this level of "fine tuning"...
Can't wait to hit the search button and provide you with the 70 page paper that debunks all the fine-tuning constants...

(January 15, 2014 at 4:40 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

Quote:Time to grow up and face reality.

God is perfectly compatible with the reality and suffering of human life and the reality of science.

So is the flying spaghetti monster, Russel's teapot, the invisible pink unicorn and a bunch of others... oh, let's throw in Allah, just for good measure!

(January 15, 2014 at 4:40 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: So you have nothing there to support the case against the existence of God.

Which god?

I think you should be made aware that you also have nothing to support the case for the existence of god... any god.

(January 15, 2014 at 4:40 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: We ought to be running around naked on the Savannah being eaten by lions, but because as we're made "in Gods image" we can do a great deal more we're not limited by our environment.

You see everyone, Darwin was brilliantly correct in thinking that complex life could evolve from simple forms, and this very well explains how life diversified from microbes to chimpanzees and dolphins and everything else; however, for those fire-wielding cave dwellers to arrive, natural selection would not suffice. Instead, a Special Act of Creation was required!

Quote:
So while you can still be an atheist and that's a valid position you can't use the universe itself and what we know of it to support your world view as this would work perfectly well as a deliberate creation of an omnipotent creator God or as a random physical byproduct of some kind that just happened to be the way it is for no real significant reason.

The Bible has been thoroughly discredited by science (oops! Those incorrect portions were actually meant to be read as metaphor all along!) Once you concede that the Bible is demonstrably false, whacky, and self-contradictory, what else do you have to go on? Philosophical theology?

Quote:We can survive anywhere on the planets surface even down the deepest ocean trench, yes in a submersible vehicle but if our intellect/adaptability to the natural world is derived from being made in the mental/spiritual image of God that will still count.

Indeed, Mars must have been designed specifically for us too, right? Of course, only once we gained scientific knowledge and developed spaceships and suits!

Quote:Yes so we evolved but if this form of evolution was intentionally set up from the beginning then we were intentionally made. We didn't have be directly or instantly made by God in the Adam and Eve sense. A lengthy process of gradual/natural formation is perfectly fine and you can read Genesis as a process of formation in a sequence of stages leading up to intelligent beings.

Way to totally misunderstand the theory of evolution and the power of natural selection/adaptation.

Quote:Genesis wasn't necessarily written as a literal scientific/historical account to begin with as it seems quite heavily symbolic and full of metaphor and there were certainly theologians who read it this way even back in the early centuries AD. Read it in this context and you won't find any problems with it as a theist.

My favorite idea: Theists have no problem with the Bible.. so long as they read it as myth.

Quote:Most theists accept evolution so there isn't really a conflict there only what you and young Earthers would want to manufacture to support whatever you/they want to believe. So I can't really stress the compatibility of the Biblical creation account and evolution/biology. From one source you get the how and from the other source the why.

"Pshh, just don't ask me about Original Sin, the Problem of Evil, Penal Substitution, the Incarnation, the Trinity, or the host of other ridiculous/immoral ideas Christians believe."

Quote:If you can see the beauty if the creation you have a master artist as well, a God worthy of worship.

Believe us (besides, it should be easy for you), life is far more beautiful when you put down the childish fantasies and investigate the natural world that we live in, in its inexplicable awe and mystery (for now, anyway), recognizing your proper place in it and how LUCKY you truly are to be given this ONE chance.

Quote:There are various negative aspects of life as well but there good theological explanations for that.

Umm. No, there isn't.

Quote:Your own opinion that he doesn't exist or you don't want to believe he exists is fine but these kinds of arguments from evil and human/natural suffering don't really hold much water.

I'll wait for that explanation. It should be good.