(January 27, 2014 at 4:54 pm)jg2014 Wrote: Well meat/poultry sales in the US in 2009 was $154.8 billion. Which is about 1% of GDP. While there would be decreased costs from not having to transport/kill/breed/ the animals in addition to not having to treat diseases caused by overfeeding, there could be an increased cost due to the improved animal welfare.This figure would then come down substantially as the animals died of natural causes.

So you would just let the species go extinct?

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(January 27, 2014 at 6:08 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Neither do babies. That makes it okay to club them in the head and eat them!

Ah not exactly the best comparison seeing as if you don't club babies in the head, they will go on to have the same range of emotions as we do.

(January 27, 2014 at 5:03 pm)LastPoet Wrote: All this talk about meat is making me hungry :D

Hmmm, ribs, steak or a chicken.... Choices, choices.

Here is a choice for you. Which one looks better?

(January 27, 2014 at 6:08 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(January 27, 2014 at 10:31 am)StoryBook Wrote: You do have a point about the 300 lb "hippos", but I have seen many starving Americans also.

So what do you expect us to do with all the livestock we have now? Send them over sea with the overpopulation of horses, so the other country's can eat them? Or just let them starve to death because farmers won't be able to afford to feed them, let alone able to feed their families?

Well, one of the main arguments for meat-eating is that it is necessary-- i.e. a dietary argument. However, many Americans probably over-eat meat by an order of 5x or 10x what they actually need for dietary reasons. If people actually lived according to the arguments they make, not only would all those starving people have meat, the hippos' health would improve greatly, fewer dollars would be spent on hippo healthcare, and I'll wager there would STILL be a reduction in the number of animals caused to exist, suffer, and be killed. This is the key-- not so much how we deal with the existing animals, but making changes to our food consumption and production that would involve the reduction (or hopefully elimination) of the millions of livestock piled into enclosed, unsanitary conditions IN THE FUTURE.

In the end, the problem is that we have all the successes that come with a big brain, and all the instincts and self-control of masturbating monkeys. This has led to an unsustainable growing human population, to a damaged environment, to wasteful consumption of every available resource, and to a continual worsening (in my opinion) of the human quality of life. And our attitudes toward food are both symptomatic of those excesses and part of the problem.

You have a misunderstanding of farms
I don't think you thought this one through...

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(January 27, 2014 at 4:40 pm)StoryBook Wrote: If you understood the behavior of animals you would know what I meant. I went to college to learn the science of animal behavior. I'm not making assumptions on this. It is true that animals do not have the same range of emotions as we do.

Neither do babies. That makes it okay to club them in the head and eat them!
[/quote]
Makes no sense, babies are human. You also have a misunderstanding of animals and the slaughter process.

Besides everyone knows that atheist eat babies

(January 27, 2014 at 6:37 pm)KUSA Wrote:

(January 27, 2014 at 5:03 pm)LastPoet Wrote: All this talk about meat is making me hungry

Hmmm, ribs, steak or a chicken.... Choices, choices.

Here is a choice for you. Which one looks better?

The ribs, for sure. Just 'cuz I don't eat meat doesn't mean I can't drool.

Here's one for you:


or

That's not vegan!

(January 27, 2014 at 11:00 pm)KUSA Wrote: That's not vegan!

Except it is. . .

http://www.peta2.com/blog/recipe-of-the-...an-nachos/

To be honest, I prefer real cheese, but that's a problem in itself, because rennet is usually not vegetarian, and milk has its own moral issues. The stuff linked in the article LOOKS great, but I've never tried it. Some brands of tofu-based mayo and whipping cream really will pass the non-veg taste test. Not sure about veg sour cream, because I've never seen it in Korea.

But enough people care about being vegetarian that the quality of foods being produced is really improving a lot. In my company, I used to take the meat-eaters out once a month for a vegetarian buffet, and they really liked it.

(January 27, 2014 at 6:26 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: Ah not exactly the best comparison seeing as if you don't club babies in the head, they will go on to have the same range of emotions as we do.

Okay, so if I unilaterally decide YOU don't have the same range of emotions as I do, then you're fair game? How about a handicapped guy? What about a guy permanently in a coma? Can I pull the plug and start spreading mustard on his arm?

Who gets to decide what organism has the right range of emotions to merit their being spared by my ravenous appetite?

(January 26, 2014 at 3:30 pm)jg2014 Wrote: Nope, Aractus brought up cholesterol. All the studies show that humans produces more than enough cholesterol to satisfy our requirements.

If you are saying that this production is not in fact enough then show some studies demonstrating any deficiencies caused by low dietary intake of cholesterol.

(Nb: emphasis added)

You didn't even attempt to answer most of my questions - you completely ignored the issue of recyclables versus non-recyclables.

Firstly, your entire assumption is wrong. This has already been pointed out to you - the body synthesises many things that are still required in our diet. B12 for instance (we actually don't do it ourselves but bacteria in our guts do - yet we still require it in our diet).

Health experts recommend avoiding flour and sugar if you have high cholesterol. Two things that have nothing to do with meat itself. So you can shove your statement up your ass - "all the studies show"... really? One of the foods recommended by health professionals is fish - to lower cholesterol.

You need to stop with the half-informative bullshit because although there may be a grain of truth to some of the things you say, most of them are totally bullshit and are simply what you want to believe is true.

Look back over my posts, I don't think I've said a single time that vegetarian diet that includes eggs and dairy is unhealthy or unwise. Vegan diets are however very unwise for most people, if not all people. Compared to a healthy, balanced, vegetarian diet a vegan diet offers no improvements whatsoever.

Furthermore there is not a moral issue with eggs and dairy. I've listened to that much bullshit in this thread - I drive past a sheep paddock every day - no a single one of them looks upset or annoyed or distressed or sick or suffering. On my aunt's farm where she has horses and cattle - none of them - neither the horses or the cattle - look like any of those either. If an animal gets sick its needs are attended to - generally the local vet is called to come out. They all live off grass 90%+ of the time. She has one very fat horse which fattened herself up on grass - so I can assure you that they all have plenty to eat.

I have no clue as to how your mind is so warped. There is no moral issue with the meat that we eat. Nor the fish that are farmed or hunted - nor the kangaroo (or in Canada the seals) that are hunted.

(January 27, 2014 at 6:37 pm)KUSA Wrote: Here is a choice for you. Which one looks better?

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Honestly, I choose the sprouts. Never been a fan of ribs.

(January 28, 2014 at 3:33 am)Aractus Wrote: Look back over my posts, I don't think I've said a single time that vegetarian diet that includes eggs and dairy is unhealthy or unwise. Vegan diets are however very unwise for most people, if not all people. Compared to a healthy, balanced, vegetarian diet a vegan diet offers no improvements whatsoever.

My experience is that with milk and possibly eggs, there's quite simply no problem being vegetarian at all. It's easy to eat yummy foods (cheesy nachos, spaghetti, bean burritos, bread, cakes).

I did try vegan once, and I had a similar experience to that others have mentioned in this thread-- quick weight loss, dizziness, etc. But that doesn't mean there's anything unhealthy about being vegan-- it means you have to eat much more carefully and plan a lot better.

Quote:Furthermore there is not a moral issue with eggs and dairy. I've listened to that much bullshit in this thread - I drive past a sheep paddock every day - no a single one of them looks upset or annoyed or distressed or sick or suffering.

I have no moral issue with dairy or unfertilized eggs per se. I DO have a serious moral problem with videos I've seen of giant factories with like a million chickens kept in tiny cages, or cows kept permanently immobilized-- or bred with such giant udders that they are no longer viable in any natural sense.