(February 5, 2014 at 3:21 am)bennyboy Wrote: Let's try some links, with clear, short comments (the way I suggested earlier):

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http://chriskresser.com/what-everyone-es...deficiency
Conclusion: According to this article (which I didn't read), more reliable tests for B12 deficiency are quite damning, both for lacto-ovo vegetarians and especially for vegans.

Caveat: None mentioned

I just did. Major oooops. Especially pertaining to neurological disorders and stage III B12 deficiencies not showing up until later in life....say around maturity for those who were weaned on a vegetarian / vegan diet?

(February 4, 2014 at 8:19 pm)Aractus Wrote: ly grass. I'm not aware that we have any cattle that is fed grain exclusively.

Quote:
Indeed as this study comparing grass-fed vs feedlot cattle says, grass-fed beef is so much worse for the environment that "increasing proportion of lot-fed beef in Australia is favourable, since this production system generates lower total GHG emissions than grass-fed production; the additional effort in producing and transporting feeds is effectively offset by the increased efficiency of meat production in feedlots."

Your solution is more factory farming? You can't be serious.

Cattle in feedlots are still raised on traditional farms before being sent ot the feedlot you know.

No, I don't think they should be more feedlot rather than grass fed. The point is all the studies show that per kg of protein, meat is worse for the environment, producing 11 times as much greenhouse gasses. The measure of how many kg of grain does it take to produce a kg of meat is useful only in so far as it is a measure of inefficiency and harm to the environment. The point is no matter how you raise cattle it is still worse than grain.

Australia is one of the biggest net exporters of grain in the world, mainly because its production of grain per head of population is huge, eg in comparison to the US it has half the total production of wheat, but a tenth of the population. Australia's problems don't stem from a lack of arable land, which it has huge amounts of per head population, but from a lack of water. The best way to deal with that is to increase the efficiency of irrigation, reduce wasteful water use on cattle by stopping eating meat, increase the use of drought resistant crops and reduce global warming.

(February 5, 2014 at 4:13 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote:

(February 5, 2014 at 3:21 am)bennyboy Wrote: Let's try some links, with clear, short comments (the way I suggested earlier):

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http://chriskresser.com/what-everyone-es...deficiency
Conclusion: According to this article (which I didn't read), more reliable tests for B12 deficiency are quite damning, both for lacto-ovo vegetarians and especially for vegans.

Caveat: None mentioned

I just did. Major oooops. Especially pertaining to neurological disorders and stage III B12 deficiencies not showing up until later in life....say around maturity for those who were weaned on a vegetarian / vegan diet?

I'm curious about breakfast cereals as supplements. I have a box of "Choco Hoops," a Tesco-branded cereal, and it has 100g giving about 34% of the RDA for B12, presumably for an adult consuming about 2000 calories/day. For a child, we're looking at about 1600 calories, so close to 43%. Not a bad start. I know for some vitamins there are issues with absorption as well as amount consumed, though. You've hit on a mediating point with me-- children. While I'm bordering on vegan these days, I wouldn't even bother telling my wife to stop giving the kids milk. This thread, though, has really made me start thinking about how much suffering milk-cows involve, even if they live to relative maturity. I'm not sure it's meaningfully less than meat stock. One number I'd like to see is the overall protein/caloric/calcium production of a milk cow over the time period it takes to raise meat stock.

That being said, I think we know even more about the harms that red meat, especially in the copious amounts that Americans eat, can bring to children and adults, and I'd be willing to bet some of them are developmental issues-- not to mention hormone issues that come from mass-production techniques. Some animal-borne diseases are instant killers, but I believe there are probably some slow-developing lurkers as well, either viral or due to the stress on organs of processing quantities of meats FAR beyond what we are evolved to handle.

I think we all have to be honest, and to turn to proper science, in improving the quality of our diet, whichever lifestyle choices we end up making.

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(February 5, 2014 at 5:38 am)jg2014 Wrote: No, I don't think they should be more feedlot rather than grass fed. The point is all the studies show that per kg of protein, meat is worse for the environment, producing 11 times as much greenhouse gasses. The measure of how many kg of grain does it take to produce a kg of meat is useful only in so far as it is a measure of inefficiency and harm to the environment. The point is no matter how you raise cattle it is still worse than grain.

I think the winning point is a function of environmental impact, as well as the efficiency of getting nutrients into people's bodies. There are regional issues in some areas (like Tibet) that making sustainable farming of plant foods impossible (afaik).

However, in countries with a choice, unless meat can provide perfect calorie and protein conversion (which it doesn't), then grain-based foods are going to be a big winner in this department (whatever the rate of inefficiency is).

Personally, I'd like to see responsible choices before eradication of meat. Many Americans eat entire orders of magnitude more meat than they need to. Not only are THEY belching and farting out copious amounts of methane, so are the many cows they consume each year, the trucks to drive all that meat around, etc. I'd very much like to see food choice becoming a dietary issue, rather than gustatory masturbation. I'd also like much stronger legislation on how animals are to be raised-- there should be requirements about degrees of liberty, exposure to natural light and foods, etc.

Quote:Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?

Sure there is, we cultivate them.

(February 4, 2014 at 8:19 am)Aractus Wrote: No ancient society has ever thrived on a vegan or vegetarian diet......

You are running far too fast without ponder properly.
Before you come down with these sort of statement you should demonstrate that human body-mind can change in a short time.
Now if you say that in the past people were not vegetarian then you imply that they were omnivorous right?
If that is the case we would be very very different from what we are today.
Not only that but if it is the case then the remains of skeletons and skulls uncovered so far would indicate that in the past we were omnivorous.
As you should know there is no evidence for that hypothesis.
To change from omnivorous to what we are today it takes ages and ages which it does not make sense considering that humans came into existence about a million of years ago and a big change takes long long time.
If you haven't got a clue about how an omnivorous look like better look down here.




Not only that but an omnivorous digestive system is also very different from what humans have.
http://blackbearresource.weebly.com/dige...ystem.html

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Oh, by the way you still haven't explain why humans salivate for fruits and not for raw meat like carnivorous and OMNIVOROUS.
I guess you haven't seen my post.
Haven't you Aractus?

There are no historical records of a vegan or vegetarian civilization. So it's quite safe to assume that there wasn't one, which makes your jumbled argument about bears meaningless.

Why humans salivate for fruits and not for raw meat.
Firstly, humans do salivate for raw meat.
Secondly, salivation is a response to food, it is involuntary.

Even your questions betray how little you know on this subject

(February 5, 2014 at 9:06 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: There are no historical records of a vegan or vegetarian civilization.

There is also NO records that we were omnivorous.

Quote:So it's quite safe to assume that there wasn't one, which makes your jumbled argument about bears meaningless.

Aractus imply that we never being vegetarian but the evidence prove that we never being omnivorous so what the hell were we?
Maybe Aractus thinks that we were something else?
Let Aractus tell us what the hell were we and then we can discuss the issue.

Why humans salivate for fruits and not for raw meat.

Quote:Firstly, humans do salivate for raw meat.

Bullshit!
Even desperate people who had no choice but eating raw meat found this humiliating and disgusting far away from salivate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...later.html

Quote:Secondly, salivation is a response to food, it is involuntary.

Bullshit.
If you put a piece of raw meat in the mouth of a veg instead of salivate he-she will vomit.
If you put the same meat in the mouth of a non veg. he may not vomit but far far away from salivate.

Quote:Even your questions betray how little you know on this subject

There is ample evidence that the skeletons and skulls from people who live ages ago show no sign of omnivorousess so where is your evidence that they were omnivorous?
Maybe in your little brain boy!

(February 4, 2014 at 7:50 pm)Aractus Wrote:

(February 4, 2014 at 9:00 am)bennyboy Wrote: I kind of agree to a degree. I think simulated "meats" are basically vegetarian porn-- it's not the real thing, but it stimulates enough of those neurons to make it pleasurable in its own way. But the fact that vegans eat anything formed to look like meat is a pretty obvious acknowledgement that meat-eating is part of our nature, at least on an instinct level.

The problem isn't that it's formed to look like meat, but rather that it's formed to taste like meat. To achieve this the foods are usually high in salt and contain msg.

Daiya "vean cheese" also contains MSG. Doesn't matter if it's naturally derived or not, MSG is bad for you. Just like many other things you shouldn't eat. Just like say tobacco, or death cap mushrooms. Both of those are 100% natural too.

Quote:As for MSG and artificial flavors-- I've never heard of vegan foods being full of garbage.

Well now you have.

Quote:That seems antithetical to the "purity" of controlling your food intake. I always check ingredients on everything, and if there are chemical names, I have to look them up, and if they can be animal sourced, I have to contact the company and specifically ask if they can guarantee a vegetable source.

Well the packet can say "flavour enhancer 621" or "yeast extract" and either way it means MSG.

Firstly, The evidence that MSG is actually harmful to most people is very poor.

As the study say "This review prevents a critical review of the available literature related to the possible role of MSG in the so-called ‘Chinese restaurant syndrome’ and in eliciting asthmatic bronchospasm, urticaria, angio-oedema, and rhinitis. Despite concerns raised by early reports, decades of research have failed to demonstrate a clear and consistent relationship between MSG ingestion and the development of these conditions."

Secondly MSG is also in many meat products for example sausages

"Ingredients
Pork (53%),Water ,Pork Fat ,Cereal ,Salt ,Permitted Preservative E221 ,Dextrose ,Flavour Enhancer E621 ,Colour (Carmine) ,Spice Extract ,Antioxidant E301"
What is E621? MSG!

Lastly, vegan cheeses are horrible and most vegans that I know wouldn't eat them. Never the less MSG is not bad for you, and vegan chees can be good source of protein for those who enjoy it.

(February 5, 2014 at 10:35 am)enrico Wrote: There is also NO records that we were omnivorous.

Yes there is. This is primary school stuff here. The fact that you believe that, its just.....astounding.

(February 5, 2014 at 10:35 am)enrico Wrote: Aractus imply that we never being vegetarian

Aractus didn't imply anything. He stated that no civilization in history has survived on a vegan/vegetarian diet. And he is (as far as we know) correct.

(February 5, 2014 at 10:35 am)enrico Wrote: but the evidence prove that we never being omnivorous so what the hell were we?

What evidence? Please present it quickly so we can debunk it and continue in your humiliation.

(February 5, 2014 at 10:35 am)enrico Wrote: Bullshit!
Even desperate people who had no choice but eating raw meat found this humiliating and disgusting far away from salivate.

I call bullshit on your bullshit. I am salivating right now at the thought of a nice bloody steak. The only reason I eat cooked steak is because it gets rid of parasites in the meat.

(February 5, 2014 at 10:35 am)enrico Wrote: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...later.html

Is this some sort of joke? This is the evidence you bring forward?
This is a person eating another person. We were talking about 'meat' as in: animal meat.
I find it very hard to believe that you could post this link by accident so I have to conclude that you are being incredibly dishonest.
Being revolted at the thought/sight of eating another human being is a completely natural response.

(February 5, 2014 at 10:35 am)enrico Wrote: Bullshit.
If you put a piece of raw meat in the mouth of a veg instead of salivate he-she will vomit.

Again, I call bullshit on your bullshit. It may well be that some vegetarians can't stand the taste of meat to the point that they would throw up if it came into contact with their tongue. However this does not mean that they are not omnivores. In fact a lot of vegetarians love the taste of meat but don't want to eat it. As a result we have micoprotein products such as Quorn, which imitates meat in every way.

(February 5, 2014 at 10:35 am)enrico Wrote: If you put the same meat in the mouth of a non veg. he may not vomit but far far away from salivate.

Please post a link to the scientific, peer-reviewed article from whence you got this information. I'm going to debut my psychic powers here and predict that you wont because you cant.

(February 5, 2014 at 10:35 am)enrico Wrote: There is ample evidence that the skeletons and skulls from people who live ages ago show no sign of omnivorousess

Well then you will have no problems providing links that present this evidence, will you?
BTW 'omnivorousess' Are you fucking trolling?

(February 5, 2014 at 10:35 am)enrico Wrote: so where is your evidence that they were omnivorous?
Maybe in your little brain boy!

Well, i'm not going to post any links because 1) I can't be bothered 2) You should know this stuff already, go and educate yourself. And most importantly 3) Science says we are omnivores, you have the burden of proof.
I will give you some hints however, just to get you started, and bear in mind this is the most basic reason for why we know we are omnivores: Teeth
You may also want to research the digestive systems of herbivores and various enzymes and bacteria.
But i'm going to make another prediction and say that you wont research this stuff because, quite frankly, based on your previous posts on this topic, this stuff is waaaaaaaaaaayy over your head.

(February 2, 2014 at 12:11 pm)NoraBrimstone Wrote:

(February 2, 2014 at 9:25 am)enrico Wrote: Our digestive system is almost the same as fruit eating animals and thousand of miles away from carnivorous.
Try to work out what this means.

It's also not the same as a herbivore's digestive system. You know why this is?

I never said that we are herbivorous.
My belief is that we are very similar to fruit eater and our main diet since man is man was fruits, nuts, grains and vegetables.

Quote:We're omnivores.

Bullshit.
If you were correct the remains of people who live ages ago would show a totally different structure similar to omnivorous.

Quote:If we weren't omnovires we wouldn't have the ability to digest meat properly. It would make us sick.

In fact it is well shown that meat make people sick.
Hospitals are full of sick people with cardiovascular diseases due to saturated fats, bad colesterol and toxins all things coming from a meat diet.

Quote:Clearly, billions of people manage to eat meat and not die from it, so we're not herbivores.

Clearly my arse.
Go in any hospital and see how many people are sick with cardiovascular diseases.

Quote:As omnivores, we have this wonderful ability to choose what we eat. If you, like me, don't want to eat meat, you don't have to. Why you feel the need to be a dick about it and tell other people what they should or shouldn't eat, despite it being none of your fucking business, is beyond me.

What sort of idiot are you?
As far as YOUR meat eating cause problem to me and everybody else you have no right to tell me that this is your business.
Climate change are also caused by the meat policy.
1) The fecal or escrement from animals cause air pollution and water pollution.
2) The quantity of water use for animals reduce the quantity of water for humans.
3) The land needed to keep cattle come at the expenses of forests which could give clean air.
4) The land needed to cultivate soia and other feed for animals also come at the expenses of less forests.
5) The remains of animals after they take away the meat cause pollution.
6) The smell of meat cooking make veg. people sick.
7) The anger discharged when animals are killed is in the air and cause bad feeling everywhere.
These are just few reason why you can not say that this is your business.
So grow up, wake up and dust off your brains.