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Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?
RE: Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?
(February 7, 2014 at 7:32 am)Aractus Wrote: JG, soy is toxic to humans and other animals. It's not a natural product at all and I don't know why you're appealing to it.

Furthermore, those with allergies against soy products as I've mentioned earlier cannot eat (almost) any processed foods - 1. because soy is added to most processed foods and 2. because it doesn't have to be labelled and they have to make the assumption that unless otherwise stated it contains soy.

So no, you cannot use soy as an example because you only find it in processed foods and if you ate it raw you'd be sick.

Can you give me a guarantee that soy is safe or healthy? No you can't. No one can. We might well find in the years to come that soy is looked down upon as a filthy carcinogen, the fact of the matter is that at the moment ignorance is bliss and just like the tobacco industry, the food industry isn't exactly wanting to find out that soy is a bad product.

If you have an ethical responsibility when it comes to food it is to: eat healthy. All other considerations, environmental, animal welfare, etc, are secondary concerns nothing should come before your own health when it comes to food.
I don't think so. Tofu has been consumed for many centuries, and soya milk for many decades at least. There have a been a few claims that consumption of very great amounts of soy products have led to feminization in men (which reverted when the products were stopped). However, there have been many MORE issues with milk allergies, with hormones fed to milk cows or meat animals, etc.

This kind of hysterical appeal to ignorance can be applied to absolutely any food or product except maybe fresh water-- Google "______ made me sick," and you'll find some cases of people who react aversely to broccoli, spinach, and apples. But taking those anecdotes and trying to generalize them to an idea like "We should eat meat, and not broccoli," would be irrational and wrong.
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RE: Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?
Quote:Once you use something that is not in your nature for long time you tend to make an habit of. That of course does not mean that it is normal.

Chimps are exclusively omnivores. They are classified as omnivores. According to Jane Goodall they are omnivores. Their diet mainly consists of fruits, seeds, nuts, flowers, leaves, insects, killed prey.

[Image: food1.jpg]


The Jane Goodall Institute says the following:

Quote:Chimpanzees spend about 6-8 hours a day foraging for food. Their diet includes a variety of foods such as fruits, seeds, berries, leaves, pith, barks, resins, and plants. Fruit and vegetable species make up the bulk of the chimpanzee diet while insects, bird eggs and meat from small and medium sized mammals provide additional sources of food. Among the mammal species which are hunted, killed and eaten are lizards, bushbuck and bushpigs, colobus monkeys and baboons."

It doesn't matter if meat is a secondary source of food or not. The simple fact that they hunt and kill prey to be eaten implies they are exclusively omnivores.

Since humans share 99% of their DNA with chimps it's obvious that we would be omnivores too. The Smithsonian labels the early human Ardipithecus ramidus as an omnivore. So we evolved from omnivores and like chimps, we are omnivores.

http://www.chimpanzoo.org/african_noteca...er_14.html

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/huma...us-ramidus
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RE: Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?
A bit of Veg*ian humour
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/vega...e-1a.shtml


"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?
(February 7, 2014 at 5:38 pm)No_God Wrote: It doesn't matter if meat is a secondary source of food or not. The simple fact that they hunt and kill prey to be eaten implies they are exclusively omnivores.

Since humans share 99% of their DNA with chimps it's obvious that we would be omnivores too. The Smithsonian labels the early human Ardipithecus ramidus as an omnivore. So we evolved from omnivores and like chimps, we are omnivores.

http://www.chimpanzoo.org/african_noteca...er_14.html

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/huma...us-ramidus
^ this.

I don't think we are going to be able to move this discussion forward much if obvious facts are being disputed. Chimps eat plants. They also eat meat. They are omnivores. Finished.

My argument for vegetarianism really is partly based on this recognition of pre-human instincts, which I consider obsolete and often harmful. We are a fighty, rape-y, violent bunch of pricks as a species; and while that is fine for animals, humans have the additional capacity of knowing better, and a greater capacity for compassion as a result. A change in values can be accompanied by meme evolution, and by selective breeding. But bullshit is the wrong vehicle for pushing for change.

In short, it is largely BECAUSE more primitive species engage in certain behaviors that I think we should examine whether we really need to persist in them.
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RE: Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?
Thing is you ARE following pre-human instincts. You are being animalistic and obsessing over your next meal.

Orthorexia nervosa is the name coined for this disorder.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?
(February 8, 2014 at 8:18 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Orthorexia nervosa is the name coined for this disorder.
Yep this is true. While I have no problem with people choosing to go vegetarian (I do see a problem with veganism), and some do it for health and some do it for compassion to animals and some do it for perceived environmentalism; ethically speaking we all have a responsibility to ensure we are eating healthy in our lives and this comes before any other dietary concerns.

I want to point out that Kichi is right - obsessing over food is disastrous and is well known to lead to anorexia and other ED's. It's also anti-social. It's also disrespectful at times to your friends and family.

I mentioned before that you have to take your own food to parties, BBQ's, etc - well this is exactly what anorexics do, and what if at that party there is someone there suffering from an ED? You'd be providing positive reinforcement for their ED by replicating their behaviour, and that should not be understated. You'd also be providing positive reinforcement for those who purge as well since the sight of the "grossly unhealthy food" makes you feel sick. You would not be setting a stable example for someone suffering from Bulimia!! You talk about not being wasteful; but how is it not being wasteful if you have to bring food to a party because you won't eat what's provided? That's the very definition of wasteful!

Now yes, a very well balanced vegan diet can be healthy, but this is well beyond the point. The fact is that most vegans are not eating healthy! They often indulge on processed foods that are bad for them!! for vegans to eat healthy (and get all the nutrients you require), as I've repeatedly stated, it requires that you plan each and every single meal ever day of your lives!! You think that most vegans do this? Like hell they do.

Some of you seem to believe a whole bunch of lies even when the truth is presented. Why is it cruel to raise animals on farms? How is it any more cruel then farming produce which requires killing pests and predators that dare enter the land (these animals are not used for anything)?

My point on wool has not been refuted by anyone, so I'll leave you with that point. Wool is an absolutely necessary fibre. A woollen jumper will keep you warm even when wet, and a synthetic one will not.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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RE: Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?
(February 7, 2014 at 3:25 pm)StoryBook Wrote: Me thinks enrico needs to [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10479465]eat more meat to get the DHA he seems to be missing from his brain


Yeah, i think you are quite right.
From now on i will stop eating bread, rice, soya products and instead i will eat a lot of meat.
It doesn't really matter if meat is loaded with saturated fat, bad cholesterol,
and toxins and it does not really matter if 99% of those who are sick with cardiovascular diseases are meat eater.
If you say that i am wrong that's it.
I can't really argue with an expert like you. Wink Shades

I think i need some help.
Can anybody tell me why in the last 24 years that i worked in rehabilitation centers, nursing homes, dementia and transition centers
i only met less then 10 vegetarian out of about 2000 people who were affected with dementia, Parkinson and Alzheimer diseases?
Of course as you guys say that a meat diet has nothing to do with these diseases what is then the reason why veg. don't get these diseases?
I am sure that expert like you can tell me the real reason.
Please help me so i can sleep in the night. Worship (large)
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RE: Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?
(February 8, 2014 at 9:59 am)enrico Wrote: I think i need some help.
Can anybody tell me why in the last 24 years that i worked in rehabilitation centers, nursing homes, dementia and transition centers
i only met less then 10 vegetarian out of about 2000 people who were affected with dementia, Parkinson and Alzheimer diseases?
Of course as you guys say that a meat diet has nothing to do with these diseases what is then the reason why veg. don't get these diseases?
I am sure that expert like you can tell me the real reason.
Please help me so i can sleep in the night. Worship (large)

Sure but first you help me. Can you tell me why vegans don't live forever? We rarely come across one more than 100 years old. What's up with that? How many years do you expect to live Rico?

Anyway, I like vegetarians. I find them less gamey than meat eaters.
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RE: Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?
(February 8, 2014 at 9:05 am)Aractus Wrote: ethically speaking we all have a responsibility to ensure we are eating healthy in our lives and this comes before any other dietary concerns.
This is an unsupported assertion-- you haven't established an ethical basis for self-treatment of any kind or category. It's also a false dilemma-- there's no reason why eating healthily cannot also include a serious effort to reduce the consumption and suffering of animals.
Quote:I want to point out that Kichi is right - obsessing over food is disastrous and is well known to lead to anorexia and other ED's. It's also anti-social. It's also disrespectful at times to your friends and family.
Strawman. Vegetarianism isn't a food obsession-- it's a health and moral decision. If you choose not to rape underage girls, should I accuse you of obsessing about sex?

Quote:I mentioned before that you have to take your own food to parties, BBQ's, etc - well this is exactly what anorexics do, and what if at that party there is someone there suffering from an ED? You'd be providing positive reinforcement for their ED by replicating their behaviour, and that should not be understated.
I just smacked down enrico for using made-up horseshit arguments, so it would be disingenuous not to take aim at your made-up horseshit argument. I also could use drummed-up hypothetical scenarios, combined with completely speculative consequences, to generate rhetorical outrage based on a fart. "What if a compulsive overeater is at the party? Your steak eating would be providing positive reinforcement for his desire to eat, putting him at increased risk of a heart attack."


Quote:You'd also be providing positive reinforcement for those who purge as well since the sight of the "grossly unhealthy food" makes you feel sick. You would not be setting a stable example for someone suffering from Bulimia!!
Dude, up until a couple posts ago, people were making an attempt to use actual observable fact, and scientifically-collected data, to argue their points. What the hell happened?

What if a sex-addicted person is at the party, and someone shows up in high heels? How dare they not anticipate the extremely unlikely scenario in which their manner of dress pushes a mentally ill person over the edge? What an outrage!

Quote:You talk about not being wasteful; but how is it not being wasteful if you have to bring food to a party because you won't eat what's provided? That's the very definition of wasteful!
When grown-ups plan a party, they generally plan to have a little extra. At the end of the night, they will give some of the extras away to guests for family members who couldn't make it, or they will put it in Tupperware for leftovers. Generally speaking, if they've invited a vegetarian, they will know about it, and may make sure that one or two dishes will be okay for them. At any rate, I don't think I've met a person in my LIFE who will host a party, and then throw perfectly good unused food into the garbage when it's done. But I appreciate the rage you feel for the nonexistent hypothetical hosts you've imagined who are wasting food in this way. You're a swell guy!

Quote:Now yes, a very well balanced vegan diet can be healthy, but this is well beyond the point. The fact is that most vegans people are not eating healthy!
FIFY.

We've already looked at reputable studies showing that vegetarians had better mortality rates and lower rates of some cancers and other diseases than meat eaters. We saw that even vegans didn't fare any worse than regular meat-eaters.

Yes, it's hard to maximize one's health on a vegan diet-- or at least it was, 10 or 20 years ago before reliable medical and dietary advice became available on teh interwebs. But open the window and look at the majority of people walking around. You won't see a bunch of healthy meat-eaters running circles around sickly vegans. You'll see SOME exceptionally healthy people, of a variety of diets but not much red meat, running circles around those less disciplined than themselves.

Quote:They often indulge on processed foods that are bad for them!! for vegans to eat healthy (and get all the nutrients you require), as I've repeatedly stated, it requires that you plan each and every single meal ever day of your lives!! You think that most vegans do this? Like hell they do.
I think most vegans these days probably ARE quite aware of their dietary needs, and are taking steps to ensure their health. Google vegan health, and you'll find literally hundreds of sites about how to be healthy and vegan. There are also vegan body-builders, fighters and marathon runners, and they are much healthier than you (I'm guessing) and I.

Quote:Some of you seem to believe a whole bunch of lies even when the truth is presented. Why is it cruel to raise animals on farms? How is it any more cruel then farming produce which requires killing pests and predators that dare enter the land (these animals are not used for anything)?
False dilemma again. The goal of most vegetarians would be to reduce meat production, and also to improve farming techniques to minimize the effect on the ecosystem, including the organisms living in it.

Quote:My point on wool has not been refuted by anyone, so I'll leave you with that point. Wool is an absolutely necessary fibre. A woollen jumper will keep you warm even when wet, and a synthetic one will not.
Gore Tex
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RE: Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?
(February 8, 2014 at 9:59 am)enrico Wrote: It doesn't really matter if meat is loaded with saturated fat, bad cholesterol,
and toxins and it does not really matter if 99% of those who are sick with cardiovascular diseases are meat eater.
Link? Evidence? Citation? Something?

(February 8, 2014 at 9:59 am)enrico Wrote: I think i need some help.
Can anybody tell me why in the last 24 years that i worked in rehabilitation centers, nursing homes, dementia and transition centers
i only met less then 10 vegetarian out of about 2000 people who were affected with dementia, Parkinson and Alzheimer diseases?
Of course as you guys say that a meat diet has nothing to do with these diseases what is then the reason why veg. don't get these diseases?
I am sure that expert like you can tell me the real reason.
Please help me so i can sleep in the night. Worship (large)

Again: You fucking idiot. Vegetarians are no where near as common as meat eating people, of course you're only going to see a few.

Are you sure you are a nurse and not a mental patient in a nursing home?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain

'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House

“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom

"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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