Quote:I do broadly agree though that the primary reasons for veganism should be moral and environmental/economic.

That's an interesting statement by itself.

I can believe that there might be health benefits to a vegetarian diet so that seems a good reason for people to be a vegan. Not everyone of course, for reasons already mentioned. Lots of things have postitve effects on health like less sun, less extreme sports, drinking red wine etc, but everyone gets a choice.

Or do you mean veganism in a more general sense, as a "movement". If so then I wholeheartedly agree. I still don't think those reasons are anything like adequate, but those are the reasons.

EAT THE FREGGIN' MEAT ALREADY.

(February 23, 2014 at 7:12 am)bennyboy Wrote: One caveat, though: I think a lot of the perceived "hostile attitudes" are a projection or an unintended implication. For example, if a vegetarian says, "I think it is more moral to avoid eating meat," then a meat-eater is likely to think, "That guy's so condescending-- he thinks he's better than me." That's certainly the case with some vegetarians, but much more rarely than people think.

For example, I believe that causing suffering or death in food animals is wrong, and that meat-eating is therefore immoral. BUT I also have many other faults and moral weaknesses of my own. Nothing about being vegetarian makes me think I'm better than others in a general sense.

l would agree that veganism is not the be and end all of ethics, nevertheless when we challenge the ethics of meat eating it will inevitably be construed as criticism of meat eaters personally. Meat eating to most people is not just something they do that may be right or wrong, it is part of their identity , and a criticism of it is a criticsm of them personally regardless of a vegan's intention to only focus on the ethics of the act itself.

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(February 23, 2014 at 8:48 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:

Quote:I do broadly agree though that the primary reasons for veganism should be moral and environmental/economic.

That's an interesting statement by itself.

I can believe that there might be health benefits to a vegetarian diet so that seems a good reason for people to be a vegan. Not everyone of course, for reasons already mentioned. Lots of things have postitve effects on health like less sun, less extreme sports, drinking red wine etc, but everyone gets a choice.

Or do you mean veganism in a more general sense, as a "movement". If so then I wholeheartedly agree. I still don't think those reasons are anything like adequate, but those are the reasons.

I think the vegan movement should continue to make people aware of the health effects of meat eating, as many people hold their health in higher regard than the enjoyment they get from meat eating. However the link between ethics and health choices are complex. To take it to an extreme one could imagine some potential health choices that are so detrimental to one's quality of life that they actually cause suffering. On the other hand, some health choices could be so detrimental to the populations health that health services could be overwhelmed. l would not put meat eating intrinsically into this latter group, so when it comes to the ethics of meat eating and health choices, it should be upto each person to judge for themselves if the potential damage to one's heath is worth it, as those who are subjectively experiencing have the most knowledge regarding which is worse.

When it comes down to the ethics of meat eating with regards to the suffering of animals and effects on the environment, that is a different story , as we have to compare between individuals' subjective experience and whether it can ever be right for the interests of one conscious individual to be completely disregarded in favour of another's

(February 23, 2014 at 7:46 am)jg2014 Wrote:

(February 22, 2014 at 9:07 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Yes. "Correlation is not causation," right guys?

To be fair, the various studies we've talked about seem to indicate that humans are a highly flexible species (as you'd expect from omnivores): we can live healthily on almost anything from plant roots to elk meat, given enough dietary variety to avoid diseases caused by vitamin deficiency, and a lifestyle that is conducive to maintaining cardiovasucular health.

Right now, my opinion is that diet type is not a health issue, but an issue of economics or morals.

Why then does a vegan diet improve health in diabetic patients to a greater extent than a Mediterranean diet(which was varied and not vitamin deficient), as the following study shows?

A couple things on that. First, most people are not diabetic patients. The search for an optimal diet for all is not likely to benefit very much from studying diabetics in my opinion.

Second, humans have some natural resistance to toxins. It's not clear that moderate eat-meating, if it involves intaking some toxins, will affect a person's health or longevity negatively.

I personally suspect that vegetarianism IS healthier than meat-eating. However, the difference in health risks and longevity between moderate meat-eaters and vegetarians is unlikely to be very much-- certainly not strong enough to make a compelling reason for meat-eaters to give up the food they enjoy.

(February 22, 2014 at 2:59 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Holy crap. If ever there was someone who needed to stay in school!

If you and these guys (StoryBook, KichigaiNeko, Minimalist, Jacob(smooth), EgoRaptor) gave a kudos to NoraBrimstone (pag 87) then you agree with what she say, right?
After i did reply to her post telling her that she is deadly wrong by showing her stupidity why then you did not show me that i was wrong?
At school they teach you to solve problems not to sweep them under the carpet so who you think it need to stay in school?

Just when I was thinking we were having an interesting and informed debate .

Hush, enrico. We were talking about you, not to you.

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(February 23, 2014 at 10:05 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(February 23, 2014 at 7:46 am)jg2014 Wrote: Why then does a vegan diet improve health in diabetic patients to a greater extent than a Mediterranean diet(which was varied and not vitamin deficient), as the following study shows?

A couple things on that. First, most people are not diabetic patients. The search for an optimal diet for all is not likely to benefit very much from studying diabetics in my opinion.

Second, humans have some natural resistance to toxins. It's not clear that moderate eat-meating, if it involves intaking some toxins, will affect a person's health or longevity negatively.

I personally suspect that vegetarianism IS healthier than meat-eating. However, the difference in health risks and longevity between moderate meat-eaters and vegetarians is unlikely to be very much-- certainly not strong enough to make a compelling reason for meat-eaters to give up the food they enjoy.

An interesting point too. We know that people who are raised on farms, where they get to eat dirt, play with pesticides etc, are less prone to allergies. A body needs to be exposed to negative stimuli or it cannot develop the ability to deal with such things.

I wonder if there is an issue with veganism from that point of view....

You might find this fellow's experiences helpful Jacob.... I find the whole site an ahteistveg*n site

http://beyondveg.com/esmay-d/bio/esmay-d-bio-1a.shtml

Quote:I HAVE LONG HAD what I feel to be undiagnosed hypoglycemia. All the symptoms were there for many years. I have also been struggling with my weight for many years. My wife was diagnosed years ago as a "borderline diabetic" (fasting blood glucose of over 150) and has had chronic, lifelong weight problems and fluctuating energy problems worse than my own.
I spent a few years as a dedicated low-fat dieter. Yet there was a problem. I suffered from constantly fluctuating energy levels, moodiness, heart palpitations, racing pulse, very low HDL cholesterol, and moderately elevated triglycerides. All this despite watching my calories within reason, strictly limiting fat intake just like I read everywhere was supposed to be healthy, and exercising both aerobically and with weights on an almost daily basis. I lost about 20 pounds on such a program, but slowly, over time, watched it creep back on, despite continuing to rigorously limit my fat intake and continuing exercise. <snip>

I have absolutely no argument with people who say they feel better and are measurably healthier eating a vegetarian diet. Hell, I have no problem with anyone who eats nothing but Pop Tarts and beer all day so long as by all medical tests he's perfectly healthy and he says he feels good. Individual experiences are not "anecdotal" if they've taken the time to get the medical tests and can show empirically that they, personally, are healthy. I definitely am. So is my wife. So are hundreds of other people I know. And it's high time the world at large acknowledges that there is no dietary panacea, no "perfect" diet that fits everybody perfectly all the time.

In the world of nutrition, there are not as many hard and fast rules as most people (including doctors and professional nutritionists) like to think. For example, read an article I wrote not long ago called The World's Biggest Fad Diet--it may surprise you. But don't take what you read there as gospel; it's just an example to show you that what you think may be indisputable about a healthy diet isn't so indisputable after all. Remember always to read as much as you can, and most importantly, to think for yourself as much as you can. And in finding a diet, remember that finding something healthy that you can stick to for life IS the goal you should have--but in your journey to find that diet for yourself, you should remember that the goal is always to find the diet that WORKS FOR YOU, not to find a way to force yourself into anyone's One True Paradigm (including mine).

Good luck in your personal search for health.

(February 24, 2014 at 4:35 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: We were talking about you, not to you.

Sure.
You are in a coffee bar and you talk about someone that is not there with some friends.
Opshhh, you forgot that you are in this forum and enrico is participating.
Opshhh, i just thought this with my arse, sorry.
Oh by the way you still haven't said why you gave a kudos to someone who write rubbish?

Because he obviously thought what she had to say was not rubbish.

(February 23, 2014 at 10:05 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(February 23, 2014 at 7:46 am)jg2014 Wrote: Why then does a vegan diet improve health in diabetic patients to a greater extent than a Mediterranean diet(which was varied and not vitamin deficient), as the following study shows?

A couple things on that. First, most people are not diabetic patients. The search for an optimal diet for all is not likely to benefit very much from studying diabetics in my opinion.

Second, humans have some natural resistance to toxins. It's not clear that moderate eat-meating, if it involves intaking some toxins, will affect a person's health or longevity negatively.

I personally suspect that vegetarianism IS healthier than meat-eating. However, the difference in health risks and longevity between moderate meat-eaters and vegetarians is unlikely to be very much-- certainly not strong enough to make a compelling reason for meat-eaters to give up the food they enjoy.

l disagree, diabetes is very common cause of ill health, especially as we age, so anything that improves health in diabetics is likely to improve health overall.

The nurse study l mentioned is also quite illustrative with regards to the effects of even moderate amounts of meat in the diet. The graph below from the paper shows that their is a linear relationship between red meat eating and mortality (hazard ratio).