(March 4, 2014 at 8:07 am)JesusLover1 Wrote: Okay guys, what would it take for you to turn to Jesus?

Brain damage.

Esquilax makes a good point.

Let me try to illustrate the concept. I'll use Esquilax as an example of a rational thinker

Esquilax, the pants I'm wearing today are purple.
Based on the evidence I've given, Esquilax is probably agnostic about the colour of my pants. He hasn't enough evidence to really know, but he can make some intelligent inferences based on the likelihood, how much he trusts me etc.

So, es, please assign an approximate percentage value to how certain you are I'm wearing purple pants today.

(March 4, 2014 at 9:07 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Esquilax makes a good point.

Let me try to illustrate the concept. I'll use Esquilax as an example of a rational thinker

Esquilax, the pants I'm wearing today are purple.
Based on the evidence I've given, Esquilax is probably agnostic about the colour of my pants. He hasn't enough evidence to really know, but he can make some intelligent inferences based on the likelihood, how much he trusts me etc.

So, es, please assign an approximate percentage value to how certain you are I'm wearing purple pants today.

Mundane, regular purple pants? Not in any way magical? Do you actually own a pair of purple pants, or is it merely possible that you could be wearing them?

At the moment I'll just play it safe and give you a fifty/fifty on your chances of purple-pantsitude, but if I really needed an answer, I'd keep asking questions like the ones above to increase or decrease the likelihood. And of course, you could, if you wanted to, provide photographic evidence of them pants.

That's how this process should work, Jesus Lover. Investigation before you commit to an answer, and before you find sufficient evidence then the claim has not fulfilled its burden of proof.

Indeed. So we're going with 50/50.

Now JL watch carefully.

Esquilax, if you don't believe I'm wearing purple pants, I will come and burn your house down.

NOW, with that information added to the equation, how likely do you think it is that I'm wearing purple pants?

(March 4, 2014 at 8:21 am)JesusLover1 Wrote: What if I don't believe and I'm wrong, and burn in hell? The fear of hell is why I'm so concerned about not sticking with my faith, nothing else.

Now there's a good reason to worship a god-- because he scares you shitless.

(March 4, 2014 at 9:20 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Indeed. So we're going with 50/50.

Now JL watch carefully.

Esquilax, if you don't believe I'm wearing purple pants, I will come and burn your house down.

NOW, with that information added to the equation, how likely do you think it is that I'm wearing purple pants?

The... the number hasn't changed!

What is this witchcraft?!

I kid, I kid.

(March 4, 2014 at 9:25 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(March 4, 2014 at 9:20 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Indeed. So we're going with 50/50.

Now JL watch carefully.

Esquilax, if you don't believe I'm wearing purple pants, I will come and burn your house down.

NOW, with that information added to the equation, how likely do you think it is that I'm wearing purple pants?

The... the number hasn't changed!

What is this witchcraft?!

I kid, I kid.

Lol. Indeed. Whether I threaten Esquilax with terrible things or not makes no difference whatsoever to how likely my claim is to be true.

Buuuuuut, I hear you say, it doesn't cost anything for Esquilax to believe I have purple pants and I might burn his house down if he doesn't, so why not believe in purplepantedness to be on the safe side?

Which is fine except that Tonus tells you HE will burn your house down unless you believe they are blue. And Badwolf tells you HE will burn your house down unless you believe they are black and min says... Etc etc.

So if you can't make a decision based on who's threatening with what, what does it take?

I shall now attempt to convert Esquilax to the belief that I'm wearing purple pants today.

---

Ta da!


Ok, purple and black check. But the point is, no ancient texts, or polls, or statistical analysis, or threats, or pleading, or prayer would have swayed Esquilax view more than a tiny bit. He needed evidence.

Do you believe brother? DO YOU NOW BELIEVE?

(March 4, 2014 at 8:21 am)JesusLover1 Wrote: What if I don't believe and I'm wrong, and burn in hell? The fear of hell is why I'm so concerned about not sticking with my faith, nothing else.

This was my reason for clinging to faith for so long. And it was just that, a desperate clinging.

The thing is, it's impossible to be "safe". You might believe in Jesus just to be safe...but what if when you die you meet Mohammad. Then you burn in hell. Make sense?

Pascal's Wager is a "false dichotomy", which means it falsely presents two options: you're either a Christian - or you're an atheist. You can also be a Muslim or a Hindu (or thousands of others), all (or at least most) have some version of a hell.

Realizing this was a key step in my becoming an atheist. Check this out:

[youtube]ET1sUtB9LQ4[/youtube]

(March 4, 2014 at 8:29 am)JesusLover1 Wrote: I often have trouble evaluating things for myself, and when I see that so many believe, it feels like there has to be something that makes them believe that we can't see, how can it just be because they were told so as a child?

Yes, there might be a lot of people believing the same thing. That could be said of any religion. Are all religions true then? It's been proven that people would rather follow the herd than go their own way. Read this article for more on this:
http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/11/i-cant-...ing-to.php

From personal experience, and from talking to a lot of people that were in the same boat, I have seen the effects that growing up with the same thing said over and over again, can do. It eventually becomes a part of you. Example: If you grow up in a household where you're constantly being told you're not worthy, you're ugly, etc, you are going to believe it and it's going to be so deeply ingrained in your self/psyche that it will be extremely difficult to let go of and believe the opposite to be true. Then when the day comes when someone challenges those beliefs, you're not going to budge, or believe them, or you're going to be confused. You will most likely fight against it. But it's only because it's been ingrained into you for so long. You have the right to break free. You have the right to ask questions and have them answered. You're your own person, so don't let others try and make you someone THEY want you to be.

(March 4, 2014 at 8:29 am)JesusLover1 Wrote: I often have trouble evaluating things for myself, and when I see that so many believe, it feels like there has to be something that makes them believe that we can't see, how can it just be because they were told so as a child?

Yes, it can be because they were told so as a child.

Children are hard-wired to believe what their elders tell them.

I believe evolution is true, and there are good evolutionary reasons why this is so.

The human species would have died out a long time ago if children did not believe their parents when they told them not to stick their hand in a fire or not to approach a bear.

So we go on believing the traditions where our ancestors got it wrong. I did until I was in my mid-40s.