(March 5, 2014 at 9:52 am)enrico Wrote: I guess you never been in the hospitals in some pacific island.
They are full of people with diabetes.
Diabetes usually come when people eat rich food and do little or no exercise.
Before the white man introduce beef these people only eat a bit of pork, chicken and some seafood but not everyday.
The everyday diet was cassava, taro, fruit, nuts and vegies.
Today they go mad for beef but especially for corned beef in the tin.
The quantity of meat that they eat is not any more that the quantity that people eat in the cold countries but the fact is that in the cold countries people get less sick that is why i said that saturated fat can be used to fight the cold to a certain extend.

Evaluate the difference between anecdote and scientific evidence. Show some studies actually showing this.

(March 5, 2014 at 9:52 am)enrico Wrote: Here and there when people did not have enough natural food they restored to eat meat or some of them eat meat as they become addicted but the fact that our body is totally different from carnivore or omnivore means that we evolve as frugivores.

How do you know this? Show some evidence. What we know is that humans have eaten meat through out our evolution and we have adaptations to eat meat.

(March 5, 2014 at 9:52 am)enrico Wrote: Rubbish.
We do have shorter bowel length than herbivores but not as short as carnivores or omnivore.

Not true, the average length of the human small intestine is 7m, so around 4-5 times the length of the body. The average length of a pigs small intestine is around 15 m, which is approx. 7 times the length of a pigs body.

(March 5, 2014 at 9:52 am)enrico Wrote: You haven't got the right information about the b12.

Objection 2: Vitamin B12 is only obtained from meat, dairy, and eggs.
B12 isn’t made by animals, it’s made by bacteria. It’s found where things are unclean (and rotting flesh is dirty). This easily explains why historically it’s been easy to get B12, because until recently we didn’t live in a sanitized environment. Pull a carrot out of the ground and don’t wash it properly, and there’s almost certainly some B12 there. Vegans should take a B12 supplement, not because veganism is unnatural, but because the modern diet is too clean to contain reliable natural sources of dirty B12.
Incidentally, our need for B12 is tiny: 3 micograms a day (not milligrams, micrograms). The amount of B12 you need for your entire life is smaller than four grains of rice.
http://www.powered-by-produce.com/2010/0.../#comments

Again you need to evaluate your sources. Yes our need for B12 is small, but the potential amount on unwashed fruit and veg is even smaller and there are also B12 analogues which have a similar chemical structure to B12 and compete for absorption but that do not have the same function in the body.

Here is a good article that actually refers to scientific research http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant

My advice to you if you are a vegan is to supplement your diet with B12, or eat fortified foods.

(March 5, 2014 at 9:52 am)enrico Wrote: Sorry but i have been through this sort of argument before when i was dealing with smokers.
Many non-smokers were telling me that i should take it easy but the fight was not won by these pacifists.
It was won by a small group of people like me who went to court several times until the politicians realized that there was no way that the law could stay as it was

Come now, "you" did not win any fight against smoking, it was part of a long term cultural change supported by clear evidence of the harms of smoking. It had nothing to do with people making idiotic arguments about smoking being "natural" or not, and if people did make such arguments it would have undermined the case for stopping smoking. What is natural is completely irrelevant to what is ethical or not. Similarly there is emerging evidence that meat is harmful to health, but to use arguments that are so obviously moronic, such as it not being "natural" undermines the credibility of other arguments against meat eating.

(March 5, 2014 at 9:52 am)enrico Wrote: Sorry but i have been through this sort of argument before when i was dealing with smokers.
Many non-smokers were telling me that i should take it easy but the fight was not won by these pacifists.
It was won by a small group of people like me who went to court several times until the politicians realized that there was no way that the law could stay as it was.

You've gone to court? Wow, what a hero, I didn't know.

You don't seem to realize one very important thing. People like YOU are helping the cause of meat-eating, because by presenting retarded, unsupportable arguments, you support the meme that vegetarians are uneducated hippies, and that their opinions are irrational and therefore easy to discount.

This bears repeating-- it is because of people like you that legitimate arguments in favor of vegetarianism get ignored. How many animals have you indirectly killed by your contribution to the poor reputation of vegetarians, and the extended time in which this battle against meat-eating will therefore require?

You animal killer!

(March 5, 2014 at 11:47 am)jg2014 Wrote:

(March 5, 2014 at 9:52 am)enrico Wrote: I guess you never been in the hospitals in some pacific island.
They are full of people with diabetes.
Diabetes usually come when people eat rich food and do little or no exercise.
Before the white man introduce beef these people only eat a bit of pork, chicken and some seafood but not everyday.
The everyday diet was cassava, taro, fruit, nuts and vegies.
Today they go mad for beef but especially for corned beef in the tin.
The quantity of meat that they eat is not any more that the quantity that people eat in the cold countries but the fact is that in the cold countries people get less sick that is why i said that saturated fat can be used to fight the cold to a certain extend.

Evaluate the difference between anecdote and scientific evidence. Show some studies actually showing this.

According to a recent article in Obesity Reviews, researchers have found that cooler external temperatures force our bodies to burn more energy to keep warm. Dr. Fiona Johnson of the University College London and her colleagues believe that higher indoor temperatures and reduced exposure to cold may be a contributor to rising obesity rates.

http://www.thatsfit.com/2011/02/01/cold-...-burn-fat/

---

(March 5, 2014 at 11:47 am)jg2014 Wrote:

(March 5, 2014 at 9:52 am)enrico Wrote: Here and there when people did not have enough natural food they restored to eat meat or some of them eat meat as they become addicted but the fact that our body is totally different from carnivore or omnivore means that we evolve as frugivores.

How do you know this? Show some evidence. What we know is that humans have eaten meat through out our evolution and we have adaptations to eat meat.

That is how mother nature works.
You become what you wish.
If our predecessors really wished to go along with a omnivore diet they would have changed and now they would look like ominvore animals.
The fact that we do not look like omnivore clearly means that meat eating in the past was mainly due to scarcity of man natural food here and there and not as a permanent habit.

(March 5, 2014 at 11:47 am)jg2014 Wrote:

(March 5, 2014 at 9:52 am)enrico Wrote: Rubbish.
We do have shorter bowel length than herbivores but not as short as carnivores or omnivore.

Not true, the average length of the human small intestine is 7m, so around 4-5 times the length of the body. The average length of a pigs small intestine is around 15 m, which is approx. 7 times the length of a pigs body.

Gee, i didn't know that you are such a cherry picker to choose a pig as a reference.
Even the Vegan skeptic site confirm that but at the same time confirm that
the length of human intestine is a lot longer than the one of meat eaters.
Now talking about the pigs you got to remember one thing.
We got domesticated pigs and we got wild pigs looking like this guy.


Now if you look at the teeth of a domesticated pig you will find a total different set of teeth as you can see here

What this means?
It means that as the teeth are different also the digestive system is different.
While a while pig need to kill and eat meat as well as other veg. items it need a shorter digestive system than a domesticated pig which is fed manly with non meat items that is why the digestive system vary from the two.





Length of Small Intestine
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

This is not an accurate measure for omnivorous pigs whose, “small intestines have an average length of 15 to 20 m”Source. For those of you who aren't entirely familiar with the metric system a pig has a body length a little over one meter.
http://veganskeptic.blogspot.com.au/2010...vores.html


The human intestine is ten times longer than the length of the body......
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/Anne...sino.shtml

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(March 5, 2014 at 11:47 am)jg2014 Wrote: My advice to you if you are a vegan is to supplement your diet with B12, or eat fortified foods.

Thanks for your advise.
For peace of mind i have not washed the vegies i get from my organic garden for years unless after the rain when the mad get stuck in the plants.

(March 5, 2014 at 9:52 am)enrico Wrote: Sorry but i have been through this sort of argument before when i was dealing with smokers.
Many non-smokers were telling me that i should take it easy but the fight was not won by these pacifists.
It was won by a small group of people like me who went to court several times until the politicians realized that there was no way that the law could stay as it was

Quote:Come now, "you" did not win any fight against smoking, it was part of a long term cultural change supported by clear evidence of the harms of smoking. It had nothing to do with people making idiotic arguments about smoking being "natural" or not, and if people did make such arguments it would have undermined the case for stopping smoking. What is natural is completely irrelevant to what is ethical or not. Similarly there is emerging evidence that meat is harmful to health, but to use arguments that are so obviously moronic, such as it not being "natural" undermines the credibility of other arguments against meat eating.

Wrong jg.
When i used to drive taxis in Sydney in the 70 and 80 me and other drivers went to court several times to back up one another in the fight against smokers who took us to court for not letting them smoke in the taxi.
After several times that the courts could not find us guilty finally the N.S.W. gov. pass a law that prevent anyone to smoke in the taxis if the driver put a sign on the window.
Soon after the gov. decided to forbid smoking also in bus and trains.
Soon after follow in the public offices, then in the shopping centers.
But taxis were the first to win the fight.
Thanks to God.

(March 6, 2014 at 10:28 am)enrico Wrote: Even the Vegan skeptic site confirm that but at the same time confirm that
the length of human intestine is a lot longer than the one of meat eaters.
Now talking about the pigs you got to remember one thing.
We got domesticated pigs and we got wild pigs looking like this guy.
.....
Now if you look at the teeth of a domesticated pig you will find a total different set of teeth as you can see here
......

Firstly if you look at the domesticated pig teeth you will see the remnants of the tusk teeth, which (I believe) are removed by the farmer.

Secondly, pig tusks are used by the pig for fighting with other pigs and for digging. if you actually look at all their other teeth that they actually use for eating you will see they are incredibly similar to human teeth. They are so similar in fact that they are often misidentified as human teeth in archaeological digs

(March 6, 2014 at 10:28 am)enrico Wrote: What this means?
It means that as the teeth are different also the digestive system is different.
While a while pig need to kill and eat meat as well as other veg. items it need a shorter digestive system than a domesticated pig which is fed manly with non meat items that is why the digestive system vary from the two.

Firstly, you should show evidence for this. However even if what you say is true what essentially what you are saying is that pigs bodies will adapt to whatever diet they are fed on. Why then would the same not be true of humans?

(March 6, 2014 at 10:28 am)enrico Wrote: Length of Small Intestine
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

This is not an accurate measure for omnivorous pigs whose, “small intestines have an average length of 15 to 20 m”Source. For those of you who aren't entirely familiar with the metric system a pig has a body length a little over one meter.
http://veganskeptic.blogspot.com.au/2010...vores.html

The human intestine is ten times longer than the length of the body......
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/Anne...sino.shtml

---

The vegan skeptic site is very poor, it has no references. The second reference is better, but I don't think you have read it. It says that " the length of the entire human intestine can range from 7.5 to 8.5 meters (25 to 28 feet)."

Now unless you think your average person is under a meter in hight, what you say must be complete nonsense. Lets say the average person is 1.6m tall ( which is a bit short, but I am being generous to your argument) 8 divided by 1.6 is 5. Therefore according to your own source, the length of the entire intestine is 5 times the length of the body, which according to the vegan skeptic site means we are either a carnivore or an omnivore. Do you agree? According to your own sources we are omnivores.

As a side note the pigs in the study I quoted were almost 2m in body length, which is why they had a a small intestine length 7 times that the length of their bodies.

(March 5, 2014 at 9:52 am)enrico Wrote: Wrong jg.
When i used to drive taxis in Sydney in the 70 and 80 me and other drivers went to court several times to back up one another in the fight against smokers who took us to court for not letting them smoke in the taxi.
After several times that the courts could not find us guilty finally the N.S.W. gov. pass a law that prevent anyone to smoke in the taxis if the driver put a sign on the window.
Soon after the gov. decided to forbid smoking also in bus and trains.
Soon after follow in the public offices, then in the shopping centers.
But taxis were the first to win the fight.
Thanks to God.

While I congratulate you for being part of a movement to improve the working conditions of taxi drivers, you are exaggerating your own importance when it comes to the general decline of smoking and the enactment of legislation internationally to protect working environments and reduce smoking. This was part of a larger cultural trend supported, as I say, by firm evidence of the harm it causes to health. If you were to make crazy arguments against smoking as you are doing now with regards to meat, you would have undermined those efforts to reduce smoking.

Quote:For peace of mind i have not washed the vegies i get from my organic garden for years unless after the rain when the mad get stuck in the plants.

Bad news Bro. You didn't wash enough of the mad off. A good deal of it you seem to have consumed!

(March 6, 2014 at 2:44 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:

Quote:For peace of mind i have not washed the vegies i get from my organic garden for years unless after the rain when the mad get stuck in the plants.

Bad news Bro. You didn't wash enough of the mad off. A good deal of it you seem to have consumed!

If i catch you i will cover you in mUd and then we see who is the mAd.

(March 7, 2014 at 7:33 am)enrico Wrote:

(March 6, 2014 at 2:44 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Bad news Bro. You didn't wash enough of the mad off. A good deal of it you seem to have consumed!

If i catch you i will cover you in mUd and then we see who is the mAd.

Ooo, you kinky bitch! OK, but only if it's warm and we're naked.

(March 6, 2014 at 1:07 pm)jg2014 Wrote: Firstly if you look at the domesticated pig teeth you will see the remnants of the tusk teeth, which (I believe) are removed by the farmer.
Secondly, pig tusks are used by the pig for fighting with other pigs and for digging. if you actually look at all their other teeth that they actually use for eating you will see they are incredibly similar to human teeth. They are so similar in fact that they are often misidentified as human teeth in archaeological digs

There is something that i may agree with you.
Pigs eat shit. ( i have seen this in the Indian villages where they keep the toilets clean)
Also many human eat shit in the form of meat so of course there are similarity.
The only difference however is that while for pigs it is natural for humans it is not and that make a lot of difference.

(March 6, 2014 at 10:28 am)enrico Wrote: What this means?
It means that as the teeth are different also the digestive system is different.
While a while pig need to kill and eat meat as well as other veg. items it need a shorter digestive system than a domesticated pig which is fed manly with non meat items that is why the digestive system vary from the two.

Quote:Firstly, you should show evidence for this. However even if what you say is true what essentially what you are saying is that pigs bodies will adapt to whatever diet they are fed on. Why then would the same not be true of humans?

That is a very interesting issue but it does not work as you may think.
It goes individually not by race or as a group of creatures.
If you are so much interested in meat you will be reborn in some sort of animals that like meat and human race will not be affected or altered by your decision.
As i said before you will be put in that mosaic that is in tune with your wishes.
Human race has got to be there all the time.
People change.
Some evolve and some go down according to their actions.
This particular planet is home to a certain group of people with certain trends and peculiarity but it is changing all the time.
In other planet there may be people with different trends and peculiarity so it is not a problem of space to accommodate all sort of people, animals and everything else according to their karma.

(March 6, 2014 at 10:28 am)enrico Wrote: Length of Small Intestine
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

Quote:This is not an accurate measure for omnivorous pigs whose, “small intestines have an average length of 15 to 20 m”Source. For those of you who aren't entirely familiar with the metric system a pig has a body length a little over one meter.

Gee, you could have chosen a different animal.
Everytime i think about pigs i think about meat and shit.
Please change animal.


[color=#DAA520]The human intestine is ten times longer than the length of the body......
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/Anne...sino.shtml

---

Quote:The vegan skeptic site is very poor, it has no references. The second reference is better, but I don't think you have read it. It says that " the length of the entire human intestine can range from 7.5 to 8.5 meters (25 to 28 feet)." Now unless you think your average person is under a meter in hight, what you say must be complete nonsense. Lets say the average person is 1.6m tall ( which is a bit short, but I am being generous to your argument) 8 divided by 1.6 is 5. Therefore according to your own source, the length of the entire intestine is 5 times the length of the body, which according to the vegan skeptic site means we are either a carnivore or an omnivore. Do you agree? According to your own sources we are omnivores.
As a side note the pigs in the study I quoted were almost 2m in body length, which is why they had a a small intestine length 7 times that the length of their bodies.

I have read far too many references and all of them indicate that the human digestive system is a lot longer than meat eater creature as they need to process the meat very fast as the meat rot very quickly.

Quote:While I congratulate you for being part of a movement to improve the working conditions of taxi drivers, you are exaggerating your own importance when it comes to the general decline of smoking and the enactment of legislation internationally to protect working environments and reduce smoking. This was part of a larger cultural trend supported, as I say, by firm evidence of the harm it causes to health. If you were to make crazy arguments against smoking as you are doing now with regards to meat, you would have undermined those efforts to reduce smoking.

Even a tiny ant can cause an avalanche if she is position in the right (wrong) place.
I don't really care what people think.
As far as i did my best i am happy as it is.
The old saying......YOU DO YOUR BEST GOD WILL DO THE REST.