"I do not feed cats. My name is Paul. I do feed cats on a Sunday."

I want to know if this is or isn't a contradiction.

In my mind it is a contradiction.

I'm on an islamic forum right now and I've asked them why they believe god does forgive association with him if a person repents. In the quran it clearly states,

Quote:Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.

Making associations with god is what they believe all Christians do, it's also called committing shirk.

And they say it's because other verses say god forgives all sins including shirk if a person repents before they die to which I replied by asking doesn't that make it a contradiction. And they say no.

But anyway I don't want to talk about the quran verse in this thread because there's only one muslim on this forum now and the rest aren't too keen on the quran and I don't want people agreeing with me just because they don't like the quran.

So to make it fair I want you to tell me if there's a contradiction in the example that I typed down here.

I accept that maybe I'm confused with what a contradiction is but to me if someone says "I do not _____" Folllowed by a separate sentence of "I do _____ in specific circumstances" that's a contradiction. Because you can't do something in specific circumstances while not doing it at all.

The reason why I ask this is because even atheists on the Islamic forum seem to be offended by this question and are telling me I don't understand English, I want to know am I going insane? This seems like an obvious contradiction to me.

Its word play.. just like the explanations that christians try to give from their bible. Ur example is a contradiction

You can likely find a definition of contradiction which applies here, but I voted No. I view it as a general and specific statement on the same topic.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:40 am)alpha male Wrote: You can likely find a definition of contradiction which applies here, but I voted No. I view it as a general and specific statement on the same topic.

One statement may be more general than the other, but they contradict since both statements can't possibly be true.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:21 am)paulpablo Wrote: I accept that maybe I'm confused with what a contradiction is but to me if someone says "I do not _____" Folllowed by a separate sentence of "I do _____ in specific circumstances" that's a contradiction. Because you can't do something in specific circumstances while not doing it at all.

This seems like an obvious contradiction to me.

An exception to the rule isn't necessarily a contradiction as long as you state that the rule has exceptions. If you state that the rule has no exceptions and then make an exception, you create a contradiction.

So is the first statement an absolute? If not then exceptions are fine. I've had similar discussions because the qur'an is littered with rules which can be interpreted as absolute (but are not explicitly stated as such) but then are given exceptions later. IMO this is a deliberate mechanism of vaguary by the authors to allow rules to be inserted as required either through additional verses or official interpretation (e.g. the haddith and clerical mechanisms).

(April 16, 2014 at 7:00 am)Ben Davis Wrote:

(April 15, 2014 at 11:21 am)paulpablo Wrote: I accept that maybe I'm confused with what a contradiction is but to me if someone says "I do not _____" Folllowed by a separate sentence of "I do _____ in specific circumstances" that's a contradiction. Because you can't do something in specific circumstances while not doing it at all.

This seems like an obvious contradiction to me.

An exception to the rule isn't necessarily a contradiction as long as you state that the rule has exceptions. If you state that the rule has no exceptions and then make an exception, you create a contradiction.

So is the first statement an absolute? If not then exceptions are fine. I've had similar discussions because the qur'an is littered with rules which can be interpreted as absolute (but are not explicitly stated as such) but then are given exceptions later. IMO this is a deliberate mechanism of vaguary by the authors to allow rules to be inserted as required either through additional verses or official interpretation (e.g. the haddith and clerical mechanisms).

I understand that in the English language you can say things like "I do not feed cats until Sunday."
Or "I do not feed cats if it is not a Sunday"
And if the quran included the words "Until" or "If" in the verse this would mean no contradiction.

But to have a verse that specifically says "God does not forgive shirk" and he doesn't give an exception to this rule even in the same verse.

In fact I don't even think this is a contradiction within the quran but a contradiction on what the quran says and what Muslims believe in order to increase the number of christian converts.

Because it's difficult to tell someone "Yes you should join our religion, you're already eternally unforgiven for the sin you have already committed though".

But there are some hadith verses which contradict god not forgiving shirk and some quran verses which say god forgives all the sins of his slaves, whoever his slaves are? I don't know if he considers christians to be his slaves aswell.

(April 16, 2014 at 8:00 am)paulpablo Wrote: I understand that in the English language you can say things like "I do not feed cats until Sunday."
Or "I do not feed cats if it is not a Sunday"
And if the quran included the words "Until" or "If" in the verse this would mean no contradiction.

But to have a verse that specifically says "God does not forgive shirk" and he doesn't give an exception to this rule even in the same verse.

What you say about the English Conditional is true however that's not the only mechanism you need to consider, especially when we're talking about such a contextual language as Arabic (or consequent translations) in such a poetic setting as the qur'an. 'Does not' is not necessarily an absolute (unlike 'never') and the source Arabic may be one of many different negations, each with its own context and poetic usage (I don't know which negation is used in the verse you're referencing) therefore it may not be an absolute either.

Quote:In fact I don't even think this is a contradiction within the quran but a contradiction on what the quran says and what Muslims believe in order to increase the number of christian converts.

Entirely plausible: many religions have co-opted local customs in order to propagate themselves and their culture spread. Think of Christianity and its absorption of Celtic, Pagan and Norse traditions when introduced to Europe.

Quote:But there are some hadith verses which contradict god not forgiving shirk and some quran verses which say god forgives all the sins of his slaves, whoever his slaves are? I don't know if he considers christians to be his slaves aswell.

If there are many seeming contradictions, I think it's likely that the verse is loose enough to allow them; it's generally when we see only one or 2 that they're most likely to be contradictions.

I would cut the quran some slack on contradictions because as you say there's poetic language to take into consideration and the fact I don't understand Arabic BUT....

The quran specifically challenges people in this verse -

Quote:Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

So it's basically saying if I find opposing pieces of information in the quran it isn't written by god.

I wouldn't nit pick about it so much if it wasn't for the verse which basically says "Hey look at this book, no contradictions so obviously written by god."

The way I see it is god has already told them he does not forgive association this is in 4:48 of the quran, every translation is exactly the same and gives no conditions in which forgiveness might take place it simply says there will be no forgiveness.

So after this point you either have a ridiculously jealous god who holds a grudge for eternity against someone who was just raised in the wrong religion who might have worshiped Jesus or a cow or practiced voodoo or something.

Or you have a god who changes his mind about what he forgives.

(April 17, 2014 at 12:31 am)paulpablo Wrote: So it's basically saying if I find opposing pieces of information in the quran it isn't written by god.

See Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses.

Quote:The way I see it is god has already told them he does not forgive association this is in 4:48 of the quran, every translation is exactly the same and gives no conditions in which forgiveness might take place it simply says there will be no forgiveness.

...until the later verses. <insert contextual argument>

Quote:So after this point you either have a ridiculously jealous god who holds a grudge for eternity against someone who was just raised in the wrong religion who might have worshiped Jesus or a cow or practiced voodoo or something.

Probably this...

Quote:Or you have a god who changes his mind about what he forgives.

...but I'd prefer this. It would create a contradiction regarding the 'changelessness' of Allah though.

That is clearly a contradiction.
I have to say that I'm little confused by the fact that you asked.
Some religious people have a knack for screwing with your mind, though.