(April 11, 2014 at 7:09 am)professor Wrote: To the OP,
I add Anna Roundtree to the youtube list,
Atheist trip to Heaven @ Beforeitsnews.com,
" Heaven is real" (film coming out) ,
"Dead to live again" by Ronald Posy (many chapters read aloud).

Can you spell g-u-l-l-i-b-l-e?

Coffee,
Satan and his minions are created beings. God has no dark side.

Robby, I gave you my best shot for answers. I don't have them all anyway.
"I give up" does not mean I join you in no man's land.

Tonus, before the Millennium gets here- earth gets the devil up close and in person.
Just warning you ahead of time.
People want a man to worship and they will get one.

Wether it falls apart in your minds or not- we are here and we need to make choices.
God is not looking to club us when we fall down.
The devil does that, not God.

You guys ARE tough.

(April 13, 2014 at 6:34 pm)professor Wrote: Coffee,
Satan and his minions are created beings. God has no dark side.

Robby, I gave you my best shot for answers. I don't have them all anyway.
"I give up" does not mean I join you in no man's land.

Tonus, before the Millennium gets here- earth gets the devil up close and in person.
Just warning you ahead of time.
People want a man to worship and they will get one.

Wether it falls apart in your minds or not- we are here and we need to make choices.
God is not looking to club us when we fall down.
The devil does that, not God.

You guys ARE tough.

There is nothing tough about it except that you are just making it tough on yourself.

We are just trying to give you a glimpse as to what your bubble looks like to the outside world. The reason that you find that uncomfortable is because you are starting to see the non-sensical nature of your construct. The discomfort you feel is cognitive dissonance which is also the motivating factor for you to try to make sense of things that are complete codswallop. When you start to examine your beliefs in an honest and unbiased way and hold your religious construct to the same standards that you would hold anything else to (i.e. the veracity of the claims in the Bible are to be tested by the same methods that you would use to test the claims in any other book, that is to say, not giving the Bible a free pass) you will find inevitably that your beliefs simply do not stand up to even a low level of scrutiny.

(April 13, 2014 at 6:34 pm)professor Wrote: Robby, I gave you my best shot for answers. I don't have them all anyway.
"I give up" does not mean I join you in no man's land.

My point is: the "yes" or "no" answers to those questions both have problems with how Christians typically conceptualize heaven and the problem of evil.

Are you saying that the notions appear contradictory, and regardless, you believe there is no contradiction despite not being able to articulate a reason?

If so, why? Why start at a conclusion that doesn't appear to make sense, then work backward to try to establish a premise that doesn't invalidate itself or the conclusion? Especially, why do so if you admit that you can't even fathom some of the base assumptions, but simply assume they must be there?

No one approaches anything else in life this way. Imagine how disastrous it would be to approach things like planning for retirement, building a house, or running a judicial system in this way.

(April 12, 2014 at 11:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 10:05 pm)professor Wrote: Robby,
My understanding is that sin and evil are impossible in Heaven.

So why can't it just be like that here, then? You already admit it's possible for God to create as reality where people don't sin and are happy. Any suffering is unnecessary, other than because God wants it.

The misconception that most people have is that sin is an act. For example, adultery is not sin, it is an attribute (or symptom, if you will) of sin, the root of sin is unbelief (sin = unbelief).

Jude 1
(KJV)
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Hebrews 10
(KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

What the first passage is saying is that God destroyed the Hebrews that he brought out of Egypt. Why? If we compare it to the second passage then we see why. The Hebrews, after bearing witness to the plagues that Moses smote Egypt with, the parting of the red sea, the water from the rock, and ultimately God himself descending down upon mount Sinai, they still refused to believe.

So if we take that second passage and look at it this way, It becomes clear.

"For if we sin(disbelieve) wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice(forgiveness) for sins (unbelief)"

As for the question as to "why didn't God create heaven on earth?" which is the gist of your question. He did, remember the garden of Eden? God placed Adam and Eve in the garden, and gave them the best protection that he could give them which was his word (which Jesus proved by resisting the temptation of the devil by replying with "it is written"). When the serpent came to tempt Eve she started off well by quoting the instructions that God gave them, but began to reason with the word of God and ultimately began to doubt it.

(as a side note, what happened in the garden of Eden had nothing to do with actual fruit trees, which i will explain later)

(April 12, 2014 at 11:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 10:05 pm)professor Wrote: All babies (not just suffering ones) go to Heaven.

I will do you one better- all with mental capacities under the age of accountability go to Heaven.

So, it's not necessary for us to suffer on earth before we can enjoy heaven. Again, any suffering is unnecessary, other than because God wants it.

I mentioned earlier, that what happened in the garden of Eden had nothing to do with fruit. What I'm about to say is controversial and most Christians aren't taught this, but the original sin in Eden was sexual. In other words, Eve had sexual intercourse with the serpent (who was not a snake). Which is why Cain is not recorded in the genealogy of Adam, because he was not Adams son.

Genesis 5 (KJV)
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

The genealogy traces the lineage of the first born son. Abel (who was Adams son) was killed having no children making Seth next in line, there is no mention of Cain.

Sin did not exist in the beginning because it was not in mans nature. For example, what makes a lamb and a wolf different? their nature. A lamb has no desire to be a wolf and neither does a "son of God" have any desire or capacity to sin (disbelieve).

But what happened in Eden was the Serpent (as I said before was not a snake, God changed him into a snake after what he had done. "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:" Genesis 3:14), who was "human like" had sexual relations with Eve which resulted in Cain (the first murderer) showing that the nature of the wolf entered into the lambs nature through sex which Cain proved by his actions. Sex was never in the plan of God from the beginning, but is now only allowed through the institution of marriage in order to procreate. Now you see why homosexuality is a problem.

This brings up the question of how was man supposed to reproduce? Mankind (plural), which means all of us, was created "in the image of God" (spirit form) in the first chapter of Genesis, Adam (the first man to have a body) was not created till the second chapter.

And Adam as the Bible states was a "son of god", he had the authority to create people (form their bodies) out of the dust just like God did, but lost that power when he fell. which is why Jesus (born of a virgin) who is also referred to as the "second Adam" upon his return will call his people up from the dust as it was supposed to be done in the beginning.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(April 12, 2014 at 11:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 10:05 pm)professor Wrote: Your last question about why the test (here on earth)?
I do not know for sure, but-
It could be that God wants no more failures like Lucifer and his followers pulled off and fell from His place on high.
Or / and, He intends to show you and me in black and white the tally at the end of the line.
No one will be able to say "I didn't do it".
Every mouth will be silent.

And I want to answer one more you haven't asked:
What about all those who went to Heaven without being tested?

They will be here during the Millennium when Satan and his minions will have been stuffed in the pit for that duration of time.
They will have been quite un-tempted by the devil for a thousand years.

Which is why the Bible says that Satan must be released for a short season at the end of the thousand years.
To Tempt all those who will dwell on the earth at that time.
Only at the end of the Millennial Restoration of All things does this occur.

So basically, God wants us to suffer for undisclosed reasons, despite the fact that you've twice admitted he can realize a paradigm where we don't suffer. Your argument is basically "it doesn't make any sense, but I believe it, anyway."

Based on your reasoning, we only suffer because God wants us to suffer. There is no external reason for it; he just wants us to suffer.

We suffer because we are in a fallen state. As I said before, Eden was heaven on earth, then sin (unbelief) entered, which is the reason for our suffering. Christ came to redeem the earth with his blood and restore everything back to what it was in the beginning.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:32 am)Huggy74 Wrote: We suffer because we are in a fallen state.

We suffer because we do not know how to properly treat each other or even how to construct a proper socioeconomical-political system whereby unnecessary suffering can be eliminated.

The nonsensical theistic answer is irrelevant and has no basis in reality for the simple reason that religion always attributes more to the suffering of humankind than actually eliminating it.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:32 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(April 12, 2014 at 11:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So why can't it just be like that here, then? You already admit it's possible for God to create as reality where people don't sin and are happy. Any suffering is unnecessary, other than because God wants it.

The misconception that most people have is that sin is an act. For example, adultery is not sin, it is an attribute (or symptom, if you will) of sin, the root of sin is unbelief (sin = unbelief).

Jude 1
(KJV)
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Hebrews 10
(KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

What the first passage is saying is that God destroyed the Hebrews that he brought out of Egypt. Why? If we compare it to the second passage then we see why. The Hebrews, after bearing witness to the plagues that Moses smote Egypt with, the parting of the red sea, the water from the rock, and ultimately God himself descending down upon mount Sinai, they still refused to believe.

So if we take that second passage and look at it this way, It becomes clear.

"For if we sin(disbelieve) wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice(forgiveness) for sins (unbelief)"

As for the question as to "why didn't God create heaven on earth?" which is the gist of your question. He did, remember the garden of Eden? God placed Adam and Eve in the garden, and gave them the best protection that he could give them which was his word (which Jesus proved by resisting the temptation of the devil by replying with "it is written"). When the serpent came to tempt Eve she started off well by quoting the instructions that God gave them, but began to reason with the word of God and ultimately began to doubt it.

(as a side note, what happened in the garden of Eden had nothing to do with actual fruit trees, which i will explain later)

(April 12, 2014 at 11:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So, it's not necessary for us to suffer on earth before we can enjoy heaven. Again, any suffering is unnecessary, other than because God wants it.

I mentioned earlier, that what happened in the garden of Eden had nothing to do with fruit. What I'm about to say is controversial and most Christians aren't taught this, but the original sin in Eden was sexual. In other words, Eve had sexual intercourse with the serpent (who was not a snake). Which is why Cain is not recorded in the genealogy of Adam, because he was not Adams son.

Genesis 5 (KJV)
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

The genealogy traces the lineage of the first born son. Abel (who was Adams son) was killed having no children making Seth next in line, there is no mention of Cain.

Sin did not exist in the beginning because it was not in mans nature. For example, what makes a lamb and a wolf different? their nature. A lamb has no desire to be a wolf and neither does a "son of God" have any desire or capacity to sin (disbelieve).

But what happened in Eden was the Serpent (as I said before was not a snake, God changed him into a snake after what he had done. "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:" Genesis 3:14), who was "human like" had sexual relations with Eve which resulted in Cain (the first murderer) showing that the nature of the wolf entered into the lambs nature through sex which Cain proved by his actions. Sex was never in the plan of God from the beginning, but is now only allowed through the institution of marriage in order to procreate. Now you see why homosexuality is a problem.

This brings up the question of how was man supposed to reproduce? Mankind (plural), which means all of us, was created "in the image of God" (spirit form) in the first chapter of Genesis, Adam (the first man to have a body) was not created till the second chapter.

And Adam as the Bible states was a "son of god", he had the authority to create people (form their bodies) out of the dust just like God did, but lost that power when he fell. which is why Jesus (born of a virgin) who is also referred to as the "second Adam" upon his return will call his people up from the dust as it was supposed to be done in the beginning.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(April 12, 2014 at 11:57 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: So basically, God wants us to suffer for undisclosed reasons, despite the fact that you've twice admitted he can realize a paradigm where we don't suffer. Your argument is basically "it doesn't make any sense, but I believe it, anyway."

Based on your reasoning, we only suffer because God wants us to suffer. There is no external reason for it; he just wants us to suffer.

We suffer because we are in a fallen state. As I said before, Eden was heaven on earth, then sin (unbelief) entered, which is the reason for our suffering. Christ came to redeem the earth with his blood and restore everything back to what it was in the beginning.

Nice personal translation. . I dont think so... next!!

(April 15, 2014 at 11:43 am)Kitanetos Wrote: The nonsensical theistic answer is irrelevant and has no basis in reality for the simple reason that religion always attributes more to the suffering of humankind than actually eliminating it.

Actually my answer was totally relevant to the question. Here is a novel idea, how about not asking theistic questions if you don't want to hear a theistic answer.

Also notice what I put under "religious views". Religion has always been an institution of Satan not God.

---

(April 15, 2014 at 11:49 am)truthBtold Wrote: Nice personal translation. . I dont think so... next!!

Which part do you consider a "personal translation"?

(April 15, 2014 at 11:57 am)Huggy74 Wrote: how about not asking theistic questions if you don't want to hear a theistic answer.

How about realizing that your theistic answer is a non-answer.

(April 15, 2014 at 11:57 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Also notice what I put under "religious views". Religion has always been an institution of Satan not God.

Religious beliefs are silly whether backed by a religious institution or not.

(April 15, 2014 at 12:02 pm)Kitanetos Wrote:

(April 15, 2014 at 11:57 am)Huggy74 Wrote: how about not asking theistic questions if you don't want to hear a theistic answer.

How about realizing that your theistic answer is a non-answer.

In the context of the question it is an answer. the fact that you don't understand doesn't make it a "non-answer" it makes you ignorant.