(April 25, 2014 at 12:53 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(April 25, 2014 at 12:40 pm)sven Wrote: The brain wants to have fun.

Hence: disease.

No... This way the brain is diseased by default.

AA didn't work well for me. There was too much talk about drinking - it just made me want to drink. I wanted to forget that part of my life and move on, and I did.

However, AA does work for some people. My experience was different from OP's. The people who I saw in AA who had been there for, say, a year or more were happy, vibrant people.

Regarding AA's success rate, note that anyone can walk into AA. There's no screening process. Someone said above, and I agree, that most addicts need to hit bottom before they are ready for recovery. What constitutes bottom varies and there's no way to determine if a person has hit it, so AA just lets anyone in, knowing that many of them aren't ready to recover. IIRC a frequently used meeting opener includes the line "if you want what we have..." Most people who walk into AA don't really want the AA life yet. They want out of their problems, but still want to drink.

It's not a total waste for those people, including people sentenced to attend by a judge. While it's unlikely to work for them at that time, still, they've now been there, and if they are ready to recover some time in the future, it's easier to go to a meeting having attended some before.

I haven't read the big book in years, but as I recall it had fantastic insights into the mind of the addict.

Well I was specifically talking about alcoholism/drug addiction. When someone's brain chemistry is demonstrably different, and there are negative behavioral, health, and cognitive consequences for that difference---that constitutes a disease.

(April 25, 2014 at 1:03 pm)sven Wrote:

(April 25, 2014 at 12:53 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: Hence: disease.

No... This way the brain is diseased by default.

Neural behavior is electro-chemical. The brain is a neural net whose overall operation we experience as consciousness. Within that framework, desires are equilibrium conditions arising from chemical activity within and among the neurons. Many classically addictive substances disrupt this chemistry in neural pathways interfering with what was generally adaptive behavior.
Morphine/Heroin/opiates in general mimic endorphins in normal pain suppression pathways. They thereby directly satisfy the desire to be pain free. Sometimes this is maladaptive.
Cocaine potentiates dopamine dependent pathways by increasing dopamine concentration. Exactly what that means on a neuron by neuron basis is unknown but people are working on it. The short term net result of having your pleasure circuits jammed full on is pretty good: euphoria. But it also hijacks your will and crowbars in a desire to take more. The exact mechanism is unknown but being researched. The general idea is that the drug causes persistent changes to the network which do not immediately (if ever) return to the status quo ante when the user stops using. In fact, trying to return to pre-usage conditions can be very unpleasant.

So there is truth to the statement that 'the brain just wants to have fun.' But that desire can be quite self destructive and if not actually a disease, the for sure it's an inclination toward disease.

I've had some issues with attendees showing up with court cards. It violates some of the traditions, but generally meetings allow the card holders to attend and sign them off.

Also, a friend of mine was given the choice of jail or going through the Salvation Army program. He took the SA option and had to endure quite a bit of proselytizing and worked in their facilities making them money. I found it annoying he had to make a hobs choice like that.

I'm not much for going to meetings anymore, I've had 27+ years to work on my 'program' such as it is.

I find these days I am more of an anachronism in the meetings, new people these days are coming in with multiple chemical issues (many I never abused because they didn't exist then) and almost all have been through rehab. My first group had no one that had been through rehab, and I just don't relate to that in someones background.

I'm also 'first pass' and boy that's a rarity these days, many folks it seems might have a coffee mug full of 30 day chips and again, I don't relate to that.

It seems like in the 'Big Book' in the early days most AAs had the 'spiritual experience' and quit drinking. Now days, most folks quit drinking (if they do that) and then gradually experience the 'spiritual experience' gradually during their first year or two (if they hold on that long).

(my take on the 'Spiritual Experience' is rather different too)

Something I found in the South Park episode "Bloody Mary" to be contrary to 'real life' was Randy at the end realizing he could control his drinking with, as Stan would say, with disciprin. Well, that's precisely the problem, addicts lack that trait. it being somewhat easier for most folks to grip abstinence than to evince control and moderation. The folks that can do that don't need to go to meetings.

WTF (my take on the 'Spiritual Experience' is rather different too)
Tell us about it... Tell us about it!!!!

If AA works for some people, fine, but it appears to be a method to shoehorn religion or spirituality into place where the addiction was. The real problem is that it also it appears that much of the reputation that 12-step programs enjoy is more mythology than fact, and the courts and doctors should recognize that.

Addiction becomes a highly complex issue when you delve into the motivations behind it, and there is no one-size-fits-all cure that everyone should be pointed to. It needs to be done on a case by case basis and treatment needs to be tailored to the addict if we want it to truly be effective.

Dude, I don't have it out for you anymore than I do anybody else that whines about people when they themselves have problems.

AA is about giving people anyway out of that deep dark pit of addiction. And you rip it because of some hate you got deep inside for religion.

AA does not, nor ever has, required god. What is different about them is that unlike you, they don't care if a drunk finds religion to help them. And the religious people don't care if a drunk pisses on god if it helps.

AA is really about being grown up. and it has some sick people in it.

The 'Spiritual Experience'

(this is my opinion, I do not represent AA)

For some/many/most alcoholics/addicts, it is better if they attribute their success in abstinence to a 'Higher Power' of some sort than to themselves. If an addict (in general) thinks he is in control, then there is that impetus to resume some bad habits, in moderation. And as it turns out, that doesn't work.

So, it becomes a necessary fiction to ascribe success to God, Higher Power, the group, whatever, as long as it's not the addict even if it really is.

And beyond the Higher Power angle, as folks acclimatize to sobriety, there is a progression towards better behavior across the board. This basic attitude shift is what the 12 Steppers refer to usually as the Spiritual Experience. It just means you're not stabbing people in the throat with scissors because they looked at you funny while you're jonesing for a gin and tonic.

For myself, in the first few months of sobriety I had quite a bit of anxiety shopping for groceries as all the stores in town had liquor departments. That hasn't been a problem for 25 years for me now, I can be in someone else's home, alone (I'm a service technician) with a fully stocked bar with no problem. I work on equipment in bars from time to time without temptation, but I rarely go to bars during open hours as I don't like being around drunks. I can (and have) purchased alcohol for 'Aunt Edna' in the nursing home and deliver it to her unmolestered.

And while I didn't go to rehab, prior to 12 Stepping, I was seeing a psychologist for stress, anxiety, depression, violent mood swings, and suicidal thoughts. I was trying to get help from the 'shrink' to make drinking work better for myself, as it turns out, he had other ideas when he realized how far gone I was into alcohol. After one session, he asked in passing for a favor. He said he had another client, very fragile in his condition, that might benefit from a particular AA meeting in town, but due to his precarious condition, he wanted me to go, sit in the back, and then report back, just as a favor to him and this other client.

My psychologist was a SNEAKY RAT BASTARD !!

The 'fragile client' was ME !

And to make it worse, it is my firm belief he called them, told them I was coming, and to give me the "shock and awe" treatment (to borrow a phrase not yet coined at the time).

It really worked, although the risk was considerable that I might kill myself instead of attempting sobriety. It was a VERY bad night, but I got through it.

(April 25, 2014 at 6:33 pm)archangle Wrote: Dude, I don't have it out for you anymore than I do anybody else that whines about people when they themselves have problems.

Are you talking to yourself?