(July 8, 2014 at 7:38 am)Muslim Atheism Wrote: Yes. . common pattern of an atheist argument, ignore answer and issue, and make new ones with so many " ? ", blank denial and no conclusion. . . religion of negativism.
Really because last time I checked that was skepticism. It’s like if I go to a school and express my point then with every question they ask me I claim that it’s negativism. Of course they are gonna have questions. It’s natural human curiosity. Negativism? Would you prefer me to just accept everything you say just like that? Why would I do that? How do you expect people to learn something?
“If you make me your authority,” said the Master to a starry-eyed disciple,” you harm yourself because you refuse to see things for yourself.”
And, after a pause, he added gently. “You harm me too because you refuse to see me as I am.”
What? you thought that you were the only one who can quote scriptures of his mentor? Because there are more of this speeches. Ignore them if you want. You bring up your Quran I bring up my knowledge tales.
Quote:Who say the Quran from God ?
If the Quran isn’t a testimony of God then why does its says لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله? And if it isn’t a testimony from god that would explain all the scientific mistake you (know like it claims there are only seven planets in the universe and that the earth was created in six days and stuff). Therefor qualifying the Quran as inefficient an inaccurate. Nor a valid tool of debate nor resource of information.
Quote:Allah is not a God. . .
That’s odd the Quran says otherwise. And if Allah isn’t god what is it? Why is the Quran more relevant if according to you don’t talk about God at all? Why do you quote it?
Quote:I am God,
First create a planet, then we talk about you being God shall we? It doesn’t have to be a big planet. Also why qualify yourself as God if there is no God?
Quote:and that's why Allah's says "NO GOD"
self/ego). .
Really? Because if I remember correctly the Quran along with every other Muslim who follows the Quran have been telling the exact opposite of “Allah is not a God.” No seriously I’m not joking.
Quote: ( (refer here) Words
Couldn’t you just post it here? I mean we already discussed the whole link to another website. I don’t want to hear what other people say in other forums I’m asking you what you have to say in this forum.
Quote: but Oneness, the reality . . and consciousness.
and the Quran is a hadith, the words of the final messenger. That's it.
Message from who? You know since there is no god as you claim it says. Technically speaking shouldn’t someone change the name of Quran into “The things that a man named Mohammed made up.” Because isn’t messenger someone that delivered a message that comes from other individual than himself?
Also.
A visitor came to seek the Master one day and said: Mohamed is dead, Jesus is dead, Abrahams is dead I can no longer follow them but you are still here so he asked to become his disciple
And the Master said, “You may live with me but don’t become my follower.
Actually I forbid you to be my follower nor live by any rule or code that I follow.”
‘Whom then shall I follow?”
“No one. The day you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. The day you follow someone else rules you’ll cease to follow your own rules. And the day you conform yourself with other people’s code you will stop creating your own code”
Quote: Which part you did not agree ?
Please state your issue and conclusion clearly.
This is a forum not an article publishing website. You expect me to write a whole essay of why I don’t believe you? Besides so far I only replied saying you know I disagree because of this(my premise) therefore you shouldn’t mention it nor take it in count(the conclusion). In the form of simple questions. What you expect me to write a whole essay? Because if you can’t answer simple questions why should I bother?
Quote:Where does the Quran say polygamy are okay ?
And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 305)
Quote:The rule is "one wife", and with strict exceptions (refer here).
Then Muhammad was an hypocrite because if I remember correctly he had more than one wife. Also if the Quran is not the word of God why should either follow or ignore that rule?
Oh and if the Quran isn’t the word of God why does that verse says
then surely God is All-Forgiving, All-Compassionate.
You are confusing me.
Quote: Hijab is not from the Quran. . it is from the Arabs. (refer here)
You claim that I’m in denial because I’m not willing to believe what you say. But when I say “WRITE YOUR OWN WORDS DON’T PUT LINKS” you ignore me completely. It’s seems that someone denials the whole statement of “I’m not gonna visit your pages” isn’t it?
Oh and
“Say to the believing women that: they should cast down their glances and guard their private parts (by being chaste).and not display their beauty except what is apparent, and they should place their khumur over their bosoms...”
Wasn't Khumur the veil covering the head?
Quote:Wow. . . are you there when it all starts ?
Secondly, what is your assumption? It is equal to our day ?
If yes. . . I wonder how could you understood it as equal to our day when the sun is not for the whole universe
and . . there is no sun in the beginning of time
May I know which planet you are referring as the basis of your assumption that it is equal to our day ? (ie. based on the sun)
Mmm no, could you tell the part were I claimed that? Because I was referring to these
Indeed, your Lord is Allah , who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He covers the night with the day, [another night] chasing it rapidly; and [He created] the sun, the moon, and the stars, subjected by His command. Unquestionably, His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah , Lord of the worlds.
Quote:and who can verified all those things ?
I don’t know. Did I said that I knew? Or that there is someone who can clarify that? I don’t remember. I remember saying that I was skeptic according to the whole planet created in term of days and that’s it.
(July 8, 2014 at 12:06 am)Zidneya Wrote: How many days did it take to create Heavens and Earth? Days? Really?
Quote:Superman ?
What does superman has to do with that? Superman was long born wayyyy after the creation. And last time I checked the Book of Rao didn’t specify that. Seriously pal that is Superman 101.
Quote:Scientists ? LOL!
I don’t know I don’t remembered any scientist clarifying that. But can you tell me
Quote:Why the Quran promotes killing if it’s the Word from God?
9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.
Quote: (July 8, 2014 at 12:06 am)Zidneya Wrote: Why if promotes a Geocentric universe? (And I’m not talking about the everything revolves around our lives) I’m talking about the stars and planets)
You are talking nonsense. . who can verified all those things ? Scientists ? LOL!
Here you go.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Geocentrism_and_the_Quran
I don’t expect you to refute the whole website. I’m gonna be honest with you. I just wanted to se how obnoxious is someone who does that to you buddy.
Let’s see if YOU STOP DOING IT.
Quote: I don't have to believe any of that, and the Quran don't ask me to believe all that. . . simply because no one can conclusively prove they are right
Don’t tell that to me! You are the one who is using that book to support your testimony.
Also if we already established that I’m gonna quote you the “Quran don't ask me to believe all that. . . simply because no one can conclusively prove they are right”
So simply they talk about egocentrism just so you decide not to believe that? This is why they decide to talk about God, the creation, the sins and everything that is contented into that book, only so you could decide what should and shouldn’t decide to believe.
Also.
Quote: I don't have to believe any of that, and the Quran don't ask me to believe all that
That’s very odd because if I remember correctly.
(June 17, 2014 at 2:08 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote: The Quran is like a statutory law . . with general rules, exceptions, and illustrations etc.
Last time I checked statutory law weren’t subject to discussion and they certainly ask you to accept all of it as true, with no option of disbelief.
Also what if I don’t want to accept what the Quran Says? Or I think the Quran ain’t for me? Because asking everyone to follow the book that I like is a Little bit despot don’t you think?
For all his traditional ways, the Master had scant respect for religious rules.
A quarrel once broke out between a disciple and his daughter because the man kept insisting that the girl conform to the rules of their religion.
The Master openly sided with the girl.
When the disciple expressed his surprise that a holy man would do this, the Master said, “You must understand that life is just like music which is made more by feeling and by instinct than by rules.”
Quote:What scientific mistakes ? The ones that Be specific. . and. .
Okay
Quote:How do you prove that it is a mistake ?
How do you prove it is a reality? Until it is proven a reality is by logical a mistake.
Quote:What are the facts you used to say it is a mistake ?
What are the facts you used to say it is a reality?
Quote:Are you there to witness everything ?
No, and last time I checked neither Mohammed.
Quote:Is it hearsay
Hearsay to what?! If you already said that there is no God, The Quran ain’t testimony from God and that Quran don't ask me to believe all that therefore I ask it again:
Why is it hearsay? And hearsay to whom?
Quote:or theory (opinion) and not facts ?
If I were you I would hear what they say before claiming there are no facts.
Quote:Are you qualified to declare it is a mistake ?
Are you Qualify to say it’s a reality? Because until one prove me everything it says is a reality(and we didn’t even aboard the homosexuality part dude) yeah I think is fair to assume is a mistake.
Quote:What is your qualification?
The lack of evidence doesn’t count? Also since when you need a qualification to be a skeptic?
Quote:What is the scientist qualification?
Wait I don’t understand are you asking me to go and ask a scientist?
Quote:How long does he been involved in that specific field ?
Hold on buddy first I need to find him.
Quote:Is he an expert ?
So you are already questioning the expertise of an scientist that I haven’t found yet?
Quote:How does he make the experiments ?
And what if I find a theoretical scientist?
Quote:What have he observed ?
Well unless I find a blind scientist I would say: A lot! You know the usual, the sky, the birds, the tress, a couple of P.H.D.s nothing fancy.
Quote:What facts does he have for experiments ?
Is it based on facts or merely his theory and assumptions (opinion) ?
You know for someone who assures that nothing can be proven to him you seem pretty persistent on getting scientific background, data, premises, and rationality? If nothing can be proven to you I dunno why would you request such things but hey I don’t judge you. I don’t believe you, but I don’t judge you.
Quote:How can he be sure that it is real facts, the truth ?
He? You won’t listen to a lady scientists? That sexist buddy.
Quote:and . . can your scientists prove that he exists and does not involve with illusion ?
Then why do you ask so many of him if you aren’t willing to listen to what he says?
Quote:and with so many phenomenal conditions. . .
see? how stupid for one to raise that issue. . . LOL!
Eh..No why would I think is stupid?
Why contradicting scientific mistakes in the Quran is stupid? Why asking a real professional scientists his theories stupid? Science is a serious professional branch of knowledge why would I take the knowledge and data of what it has to offer as stupid?
Quote: Quote:What about all the cruelty in Quran?
What verse from the Quran ?
Be specific. . this is blank accusation.
Really?
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Quote:
No. . . it is not about obeying Allah
Allah?....Who’s Allah? Is that thing that you say it isn’t a god therefore why mentioning in the first place?
Quote:
it is about Oneness. . self consciousness vs. egoism consciousness.
And why would I need to read the Quran to know that? Who decides what is self consciousness vs. egoism consciousness?
“How can I be a great man like Jesus, Muhammad and Ghandi or yourself?”
“Why be a great man?” said the Master. “Being a man is a great enough achievement.”
Quote:
and that's what makes an atheist as "religious people".
…I’m sorry I’m lost there. How does the struggle between the self consciousness vs. egoism consciousness reflect the religious beliefs of a person? If I win against the egoism consciousness does that makes me a religious? Or vice versa? Also religious to what? There is no God according to you. So to what should I appeal my religion?
Quote:…it is the same, and an alternative to conventional theists.
Really? Because conventional theist have, religious holydays, dogmas, religious explanations and codes of moral and behaviors according to one’s religion.
Why do you think that I asked if there was a line between religious faith and simple beliefs?
Because if atheist are like conventional theists.
Then shouldn’t we kneel in front of the periodic table and make bows?
Then shouldn’t we pray to the vaccines to help us in our everyday life?
Then shouldn’t we see and interpret symbols printed in atoms?
Then shouldn’t we celebrate Einstein birthday an official holiday?
Then shouldn’t we pay penitence for breaking the sound barrier?
Then shouldn’t we confess when we get mathematics results without doing the equations?
Then shouldn’t we give scientific institutions tax rate excepts?
Then shouldn’t our good deeds are awarded by the starts in the universe?
Then shouldn’t we get our morals from watching the weather report?
Because I think that only when we achieve that one could say that atheist is an actual religion. Isn’t it?
(July 4, 2014 at 12:55 am)Muslim Atheism Wrote: Therefore, the atheistic "point of view" is characterized by the trend of mind called "realism", just as the conventional "religious" (or theistic) "point of view" is characterized by the trend of mind called "idealism" — but both atheism and theism arise on the basis of the "self"-contraction (or the ego of phenomenal "self"-consciousness), rather than on the basis of direct Intuition of the Real Self-Nature, Self-Condition, and Self-State That is Prior to separate "self" and its conventions of perception and thought.
Therefore. . . atheism (or conventional realism) is simply a philosophical alternative to theism (or conventional "God-religion"), based on the same principle and consciousness (which is the phenomenal ego), and seeking (by alternative means) to fulfill the conditionally manifested "self" and relieve it of its suffering.
Yeah… mmm I don’t get that could you simplify it for me? You know using simple words?
Also:
Before the visitor embarked upon discipleship he wanted assurance from the Master,
“Can you teach me the goal of human life?”
“I cannot.”
“Can you teach me what is real and what is an illusion?”
“I cannot.”
“Can you teach me right from wrong”
“I cannot.”
“Can you show me the truths about God’s existence?”
“I cannot.”
“Or at least the meaning of life?”
“I cannot.”
“Can you indicate to me the nature of death and of life beyond the grave?”
“I cannot.”
The visitor walked away in scorn. The disciples were dismayed that their Master had been shown up in a poor light.
Said the Master soothingly, “Of what use is it to comprehend life’s nature and life’s meaning if you have never tasted it? I’d rather you ate your pudding than to hear other people speculations of it.”
Quote:Huh? you must be a very funny person, try ask that question to yourself. . . .
….
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Okay
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Then why do I bother to argue with you?
Because I don’t believe you.
Why do I debate with you?
To express our points
Why do I care to refute the Quran?
Because I don’t think that religious texts can be used as reliable source of information specially when the premise of the person I’m debating is “There is no God”.
Why do you started this thread?
And how should I know why you started this thread? Did you really think this through when you ask me to answer this questions Buddy?
Why claiming that everyone else is in denial?
I’m not claiming that everyone else is in denial. And also denial to what exactly?
If you don’t care about others disbelief you shouldn’t care whether or not they are in denial?
Again I’m not claiming that every atheist is in denial.
Why continue your thread?
Because I want to see how you defend the Quran after you claim there is no God nor that, that book comes form God. Because that’s the whole premise of following the Quran. Because I want to see when you are going to realize that having a belief in something doesn’t makes you religious. Because just as I can’t prove to you that I exist I want to see what can you prove to me.
Why not only agree with anyone?
Because I don’t think that my disbelief is a Ignoratio elenchi?
Why do you constantly validate your point?
Because is my point and I can do it what I want with it.
People don’t believe you? So?
….Really? People don’t believe me? Because I could name a couple of atheist around here that agree with me.
Even if you are bored you can simply do other things why this?
I don’t do this because I’m bored. Also who says I don’t do other things with my time?
If my disbelief doesn’t matter why posting a Wikipedia article?
I haven’t posted any Wikipedia article.
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It was a WikiIslam.
Now that I have answered those questions are you willing to answer the yourself?
- If my disbelief to you statement is a is a Ignoratio elenchi? Because last time I checked Ignoratio elenchi is mentioning some point that has anything to do nor address the issue in question.
- Then why do you bother to argue with me?
- Why do you debate with me?
Why do you care if I refute or accept the Quran?
- Why do you started this thread?
- Why claiming that everyone else is in denial? If you don’t care about others disbelief you shouldn’t care whether or not they are in denial?
- Why continue your thread?
- Why not only agree with anyone?
- Why do you constantly validate your point? People don’t believe you? So?
- Even if you are bored you can simply do other things why this?
- If my disbelief doesn’t matter why posting a Wikipedia article?
To a disciple who was forever complaining about others ignorance, the Master said, “If it is peace you want, instead of mentioning everyone else mistakes seek to change yourself, not other people. It is easier to protect your feet with slippers than to carpet the whole of the earth.”
Quote: Again. . you can't even understand the issue or the question, and instead reply with more irrelevant questions . .
Irrelevant? Is irrelevant asking you to support what you say? You don’t debate much in real life do you?
Probe me that everything you claim is true.
If everything as a delusion what can you probe?
Because you said that the only real thing was you.
That you are God?
The title of this thread is I am God therefore prove it.
That there is no God?
You said there is no God. And then you say you are God.
Which I can only say.
How do you prove that it is a mistake ?
What are the facts you used to say it is a mistake ?
Are you there to witness everything ?
Is it hearsay or theory (opinion) and not facts ?
Are you qualified to declare it is a mistake ?
What is your qualification?
What is the scientist qualification?
How long does he been involved in that specific field ?
Are you an expert ?
How does you make your experiments to prove that?
What have you’ve observed ?
What facts do you have to support your experiments ?
Is it based on facts or merely his theory and assumptions (opinion) ?
How can you be sure that it is real facts, the truth ?
and . . can you prove that he doesn’t exists and does not involve with illusion ?
and with so many phenomenal conditions. . .
see? how stupid for one to raise the God issue. . . LOL!
Imagine if I tell you there is no Homo sapiens, But wait right after that I say. I am the Homo sapiens? Does that make sense to you?
That everything is a delusion?
Hey if you are going to claim that you should be able to support that.
If everything is a delusion so does the Quran isn’t it?
Yet you defend a delusionary book that comes from what you claim is a delusionary world.
And if the Quran is a Delusion why mentioning it?
You support what you say with the Quran why is it Irrelevant asking you to tell me why if everything is a delusion?
That the Quran is the ultimate guide to understanding?
(July 8, 2014 at 12:06 am)Zidneya Wrote: Quote:According to your logic everything is God and if everything is God. Does a stone is God? Does a grain of sand? Does a stone has a will?(you know that one of the personal traits of God is his will right?) And if it doesn’t then what relevance or objectiveness does that give to the Quran? How does your logic give what is content in the Quran more sacred relevance than any other self help book if there is no supernatural info in it’s contents? And how does that logic of cause and effect solve the how does everything came up to be?
Proven. . you don't even understand the issue and just interrupts with your fallacy . .
Hey I didn’t put the Quran in the conversation Pal that was you. And If you claim everything is a delusion that gives me more reason of why I shouldn’t even care what the Quran says. Your book right there is along with everything else is an illusion. And if you are willing to contradict me then my skepticism shouldn’t be called a fallacy.
Quote: Quote:And if atheism and theism variants since both are basing on realism an idealism doesn’t that affect the effect? And if it doesn’t affect the effect why isn’t everyone agrees with everyone? Why don’t you agree with me? Does anything that comes from the self is equal? Does the continuum examination of the reality doesn’t count?
Again. . . you don't even understand what the article are saying and making wrong conclusion.
Hey don’t blame me for not understanding the subject correctly. Blame the guy who made the premise for not being able to formulate a fully understandable premise that anyone can understand.
Quote: That article is differentiate that both atheist and theist are making conclusion on "egoism consciousness" (illusion) rather than . . "direct intuition" with nature, Oneness. .. .
And how does achieving the right conclusion is gonna solve the mystery of creation? Because last time I checked atheists and theist struggle because of that very principle.
Quote:Therefore, both atheist and theist are the same.
Do we kneel? Because theists kneel.
Do we pray? Because theists pray.
Do we see and interpret symbols? Because theists interpret symbols.
Do we have to pay penitence for breaking our convictions? Because theists pay penitence for breaking their religious convictions, or a promise of penitence.
Do we confess? Because theists confess.
Do our good deeds are done to fulfill the promise of a future reward? Because theists say their good deeds will give them a future reward.
Do we get our morals from religious texts? Because theists use their religious texts as a sources of moral dogmas.
If I believe strong enough does the laws of the universe will change?
Theist say if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain and it will move. And if atheists are the same…could I move a mountain?
You said we are the same.
Also:
One day a traveler came to see the wisdom of the teacher. He claimed that all thoughts were the same because all minds the formulated them equally.
The Master asked him if he could throw a coin to the pond.
The visitors began to walk to the pond and then Master interrupted him. No! Please do it from here. And the visitor did it.
Then the Master took out a handful of coins from his pocket and said.
“Now throw all these coins with the same force and from the same position and see if the result is the same”. The visitor missed a couple of shots.
And the Master replied: “thinking that everyone heads to the same conclusions is like asking two inexperienced travelers to reach the same destiny in a land which is unknown to them”.
Quote:Okay, I don't know what you are trying to prove. . . .
but I got tired to continue, and fed up with this silly and irrelevant question. .
Then you know how we feel about your “I am God thread”.
Quote:it is so obvious that you don't even understand "the topic and issue"
Yeah I know that’s why I’m asking questions genius. How else do you expect me to learn? I’m not a mind reader.
Quote:, the "argument", or what the article are saying. . . "
Really because so far we have discussed like 30 different topic so far. Some of them which you have encouraged me to discuss.
Quote:Try one issue at a time or make clear the above , one at a time , maybe that is better for you . .
Why? I’m not the one who’s giving up. That’s you not me.
Quote:here is the Bookmark
Mmm for a person who wants to aboard one subject at a time you seem really persistent to refute everything I doubt about the Quran all at once?
I may be on denial but let’s face it pal:
(June 25, 2014 at 12:25 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote: If one learn the principles and logic and read the whole Quran, one cannot find any inconsistencies, even a slight mistake of spelling or misplace of words etc.
The young disciple was such a prodigy that scholars from everywhere sought his advice and marvelled at his learning.
When the Governor was looking for an advisor, he came to the Master and said, “Tell me is it true that the young man knows as much as they say he does?”
“Truth to tell.” said the Master wryly, “the fellow reads so much I don‘t see how he could ever find the time to know anything.”
You see denial everywhere in atheism. Why did you came up here in the first place?
Because I will repeat it again
“DENIAL AND ESCEPTISISM ARE TWO DIFERENT THINGS”.
“I wish to learn. Will you teach me?”
“Only if you do something for me” said the Master.
“What is it?”
“Could you teach me how to teach you?”
To his bewildered disciples the Master later said: “Teaching only takes place when learning does. Knowledge of the truth only takes place when you learn something of yourself while you teach to others. If the day comes when you’ll stop learning from those who you teach that will be the day you’ll be stopping from searching the truth”
And let me tell you Pal ever since you came here you have only saw reinforcement of your own teachings because if it’s truth you seek then there is something absolutely indispensable. And No! “it’s not a “an overwhelming passion for knowledge.”
you must have above all else.
“ But. An unremitting readiness to admit you may be wrong.”
But hey what do I know? Keep saying that the Quran is the perfect tool for everything and everyone let’s see what happens.
The Master once told the story of a priceless antique bowl that fetched a fortune at a public auction. It had been used by a tramp who ended his days in poverty, quite unaware of the value of the bowl with which he begged for pennies.
When a disciple asked the Master why was that bowl so important, the Master said, “things are as valuable as one think they are”
And the he replied:
“One can read War and Peace and see a bunch of letters with no meaning, and others can read a cookie fortune quote and find the meaning of life”
So excuse me if I have a hard time trying to assume that one compendium of knowledge applies to all.
Oh and before you start even trying to refute me about the Quran there is something that you might wanna know. I asked a acquaintance of mine who happens to be a Muslim if what you claimed about the Quran was right and guess what? He says you are wrong...very very wrong.
You don't believe me see for yourself.
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