I think barack obama and Western Europe should find their backbones, build stronger alliances and support with the Eastern European countries and contain Putin.

(July 25, 2014 at 7:33 pm)Blackout Wrote: Lol. Nationalism and patriotism are not the same, don't make senseless confusions. Nationalism is a political ideology that empathises one's nation. Patriotism is simply being proud of your own country and origins. I'm a patriot, I like my country and my origins, and I contribute to it as I can and try to be productive. Most people are patriots to an extent, at least they are moderate patriots. Nationalism takes patriotism to a higher level and puts everything submitted to the nation's will and good. Even nationalists won't kick out all immigrants, simply the ones who don't contribute to anything.

Nationalism requires patriotism, I did not say they were the same. Patriotism does not require nationalism, but the reverse is certainly true.

Don't defend with 'even ____ won't', because you'll find that somewhere one does. In this case, a good number more than six.

Quote:Can you try to be clearer? There is a difference between socialist and communist parties, at least in europe there is.

Only in branding. Modern socialism is a rebranded communism. They are different in the sense that Baptist and Methodist Christian churches are different: both are Christian churches, but each has a slightly different focus, and a few small things that an outsider wouldn't even notice are different between the two.

The republican party of today is NOT the republican party of 30 years ago, let alone the party of its origin. So holds true with modern communism and modern socialism. Perhaps one day the two will be so different that they are so distinguishable as various Abrahamic religions... but that day is hundreds of years yet to come.

Today they remain moderate synonyms. I'm sure that the parties are ten types of different on "the big issues", but in reality, these "issues" are really very small, and the *focus* remains very similar. False choice, ahhh... 'democracy'.

(July 23, 2014 at 8:17 pm)CristW Wrote: Hello, Should USA pursue a policy to actively remove Pres. Putin? and replace him with Socialists, Communists, or Nationalists? I think it is best we promote a policy which will help the Socialistic parties within Russia(there are 3 which are listed in the Duma) and to strengthen relations with Russia and work with Russia with our space program and global foreign policy objectives.

Tampering in the internal politics of other countries has never in our history played out well. Why should we presume to do so with a country as powerful as Russia?

eta: nod to Minimalist, I posted this before I read his post saying the same thing more artfully.

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(July 24, 2014 at 9:22 am)CristW Wrote: Blackout, why do you want nationalists to win? Let' s pretend they do win...what is their foreign policy towards the United States? ...Europe and Asia? ...the Middle East? ...what about domestic freedoms and liberties for fellow Russians? I do not think the Russian nationalist parties would help Russia and the world. The same we could say for the Communist party (even though they are the SECOND most popular party in the Duma and the recent elections).

Quite frankly, I think Putin's policies are designed to garner their support anyways; he seem very intent on recovering Russia's prestige from the Stalin era, which, while obviously leftist and not rightist, is an era which both sides fondly remember. In that sense, they are all nationalists. To that end, Putin will tryi to return the former SSRs to the direct control of the Kremlin, and absent that, will attempt to place them in the Russian orbit as satellite states where they aren't already.

Quote:Nationalism requires patriotism, I did not say they were the same. Patriotism does not require nationalism, but the reverse is certainly true.

Don't defend with 'even ____ won't', because you'll find that somewhere one does. In this case, a good number more than six.

Agree, you just seemed to be making the case of patriots thinking their country is better. I like my country but I have respect for others. And yeah nationalists hate immigrants (in europe at least) but they propose some economic measures that could fix some crisis.

Quote:Only in branding. Modern socialism is a rebranded communism. They are different in the sense that Baptist and Methodist Christian churches are different: both are Christian churches, but each has a slightly different focus, and a few small things that an outsider wouldn't even notice are different between the two.

The republican party of today is NOT the republican party of 30 years ago, let alone the party of its origin. So holds true with modern communism and modern socialism. Perhaps one day the two will be so different that they are so distinguishable as various Abrahamic religions... but that day is hundreds of years yet to come.

Today they remain moderate synonyms. I'm sure that the parties are ten types of different on "the big issues", but in reality, these "issues" are really very small, and the *focus* remains very similar. False choice, ahhh... 'democracy'.

Not really. Socialist parties in europe are pretty moderate, few members defend walking the communist path, many just favour a little more government intervention and social aid, Sweden style, but never abolishing capitalism. I don't know if the same happens in Russia though

(July 25, 2014 at 7:42 pm)A Theist Wrote: I think barack obama and Western Europe should find their backbones, build stronger alliances and support with the Eastern European countries and contain Putin.

You still here, Adolf? I thought you took a rifle and headed off to fight the Bolsheviks on the Eastern Front like your fuhrer wanted?

(July 25, 2014 at 9:26 pm)Blackout Wrote: Agree, you just seemed to be making the case of patriots thinking their country is better. I like my country but I have respect for others. And yeah nationalists hate immigrants (in europe at least) but they propose some economic measures that could fix some crisis.

Believing your country is better and having respect for others are not exclusive.

Depends on the nation.

Quote:Not really. Socialist parties in europe are pretty moderate, few members defend walking the communist path, many just favour a little more government intervention and social aid, Sweden style, but never abolishing capitalism. I don't know if the same happens in Russia though

Russia's and the USA are the question asked, and communism and socialism are very similar within the two of these.

I haven't the foggiest as to what passes for socialism or communism in western Europe. China's got its own variety.

Quote:Believing your country is better and having respect for others are not exclusive.

Depends on the nation.

The far right is winning votes either way (in europe), nationalism is on the rise, and the causes are pretty clear to me. My option in voting for a nationalist party that was socially liberal was to get rid of the EU and cut down on government unnecessary expenses, plus expelling some immigrants is not a bad idea at all. It's true that immigration brings benefits, but total open borders are not helping the EU countries, many people are rebelling against massive immigration. Take the example of 5 million muslims in france

Quote:Russia's and the USA are the question asked, and communism and socialism are very similar within the two of these.

I haven't the foggiest as to what passes for socialism or communism in western Europe. China's got its own variety.

Sure, I was just associating with europe since I live here.

(July 25, 2014 at 10:25 pm)Blackout Wrote: The far right is winning votes either way (in europe), nationalism is on the rise, and the causes are pretty clear to me. My option in voting for a nationalist party that was socially liberal was to get rid of the EU and cut down on government unnecessary expenses, plus expelling some immigrants is not a bad idea at all. It's true that immigration brings benefits, but total open borders are not helping the EU countries, many people are rebelling against massive immigration. Take the example of 5 million muslims in france

Be warned... with nationalism comes a return to war. We are currently living in the least violent century mankind has ever experienced, and that's including both World Wars.

Might be a good thing to return to our roots. But... it's debatable.

Quote:Sure, I was just associating with europe since I live here.

You poor thing. You should live with me instead.

Great response Alice. However, Socialism is more likely to increase taxes on business firms within the free market system rather than eliminating them completely according to the PURE Marxist model. Putin is not actually reviving the Soviet Union but rather PANDERING to the nationalistic fervor within his nation. Please, filter the noise within the media. Putin is really PANDERING even though it seems he is expressing nostalgia for the soviet era. The reason why i say this is because Putin could have decided to become a member of the current Communist Party of the Russian federation rather than existing separately from it and allowing the Oligarchs to operate. Now, the difference between socialism and the progressives is the utility of the free market system and material direction of society at large. In other words, Socialism relies on heavy taxation to address moral issues within society. While progressives does not see taxes as a central issue but would do what it takes to uplift society even if it means less taxes or more taxes on business firms.

Now, for the Ukraine. The problem i have seen concerning Ukraine is the missed opportunity to create a federal republic and to create a new contract/treaty with Russia concerning Crimea. It would have saved many lost lives and chaos.

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Let me add, this thread is NOT about a military coup or violent overthrow of Putin. This thread is about motivating and encouraging other parties to come out, energize them and get some votes to differentiate themselves from Putin and Putin's political party.

It's kind of inspiring to think that Putin might restore Czardom in Russia if given enough time That'd be pretty impressive.

The problem for the USA, is that if we're at the forefront of removing Putin, and we're there from the start... other nations are quite likely to see it as the USA going for yet another oil grab (Kuwait, Saudi), and we can't hold a claim in Ukraine if we're at war with a Russia that has annexed Ukraine. It would take a considerable force to meet it, and as the US has a pretty sweet deal in Saudi: it would be ridiculous for them to risk initiating a war that will cost them more than the oil fields of Ukraine are worth.

The flow would slow, sure... but it's still tenable.