(September 25, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Beccs Wrote: I've seen the idiocy directed at Emma Watson after her speech at the UN

Idiocy directed her way? maybe she's doing the directing...

(September 25, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Beccs Wrote: When it comes to gender equality I call myself a feminist.

But it's not gender egalitarian, it's gender inclusive. An MRA member could say the same you are, but both ideologies are gender inclusive.

And where are these feminists marching for men who are oppressed? or transgendered people? or women who are actually oppressed in actual patriarchies. Gender equality my ass.

(September 25, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 2:47 pm)Lemonvariable72 Wrote: Yes, and those calling out the pyschopaths do not deserve to be called sexist when they are not, and people fighting for a good should not be burdened by them.

It works both ways.

I've seen the idiocy directed at Emma Watson after her speech at the UN; threats of publishing naked pictures and all the other bullshit directed at her. I've seen some men speak up against the campaign but not as many as I would have expected/hoped.

If I see a woman calling all sex rape or some other such bullshit I will call her out on it. But I simply don't have the time to goes to extremist feminist websites and argue with them constantly.

When it comes to gender equality I call myself a feminist. I don't hate men - quite the contrary, in fact.

Yes human being are a stupid species on that we can agree. I just get pissed off with these extremist pedalling bullshit and playing professional victims all the you can't call them out because they are "feminists".

(September 25, 2014 at 4:41 pm)Godslayer Wrote:

(September 25, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Beccs Wrote: I've seen the idiocy directed at Emma Watson after her speech at the UN

Idiocy directed her way? maybe she's doing the directing...

(September 25, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Beccs Wrote: When it comes to gender equality I call myself a feminist.

But it's not gender egalitarian, it's gender inclusive. An MRA member could say the same you are, but both ideologies are gender inclusive.

And where are these feminists marching for men who are oppressed? or transgendered people? or women who are actually oppressed in actual patriarchies. Gender equality my ass.

Now, step back and go and see what they've been saying about her and what she actually said.

Until you do so we're done in our discussion.

(September 25, 2014 at 4:41 pm)Godslayer Wrote: And where are these feminists marching for men who are oppressed? or transgendered people? or women who are actually oppressed in actual patriarchies. Gender equality my ass.

This is a stupid position to take; you wouldn't blame any other group for focusing on one thing, after all. You're not dismissing cancer researchers because they aren't dealing with HIV. Sometimes, interest groups specialize. It's kinda what makes human culture so strong.

Moreover, one could easily argue that the gender equality that moderate feminism fights for also redresses inequality toward men via removing all manner of harmful thinking regarding gender roles. As to your other questions, that's kind of mystifying; I've seen plenty of coverage of transgender issues in the feminist media I frequent, and I don't think anyone is advocating for gender-based oppression of either men or women here. Seems like you're kinda spinning issues out of wholecloth to be mad at here.

(September 25, 2014 at 11:27 pm)Esquilax Wrote: This is a stupid position to take; you wouldn't blame any other group for focusing on one thing, after all.

^ This, many times. So irritating and dishonest.

I think the point Godslayer was trying to make was that feminism is supposed to be about gender equality and yet it would appear that they only focus on female issues when they should be focusing on both. It is quite understandable for feminists to be outraged at something sexist on tv or at work when it is to do with women, but they never seem to even notice or address the issues men have. When was the last time you saw Anita Sarkeesian or any prominent feminist campaigning for men to get equal custody of a child or for men and women to get the same prison sentence for the same crime? When did you last hear them complaining about objectification of men? Anyone seen Magic Mike? It's a film about male strippers, can you imagine the feminists backlash if it was a film about female strippers? And yet we hear nothing from them.

(September 26, 2014 at 9:01 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: I think the point Godslayer was trying to make

Bullshit. Activist X says "such and such is a problem", and all the people who previously didn't care squat about any of these issues suddenly throw a tantrum about what X should rather be worrying about. It's just a dishonest+lazy diversion to avoid having to think about issues and in this case to put these Women in their place because they make you uncomfortable.
When does Greenpeace do to help Ebola victims? What do Doctors without Borders do for the endangered Woodpeckers of China?

(September 26, 2014 at 9:25 am)Alex K Wrote:

(September 26, 2014 at 9:01 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: I think the point Godslayer was trying to make

Bullshit. Activist X says "such and such is a problem", and all the people who previously didn't care squat about any of these issues suddenly throw a tantrum about what X should rather be worrying about. It's just a dishonest+lazy diversion to avoid having to think about issues and in this case to put these Women in their place because they make you uncomfortable.
When does Greenpeace do to help Ebola victims? What do Doctors without Borders do for the endangered Woodpeckers of China?

...and sure a cop shot an unarmed black man with his hands in the air but why aren't you so worried about all that black-on-black crime, huh, huh?

This line of reasoning has many variations. It's called red herring evasion.

Can anyone blame any woman for not also championing the rights of men as well as their own. For fuck's sake, women do not have the same equality of life as men.
The problem is in the men's brains and how they think. But women don't want to wait for another hundred years for men to become enlightened on a grand scale, which most of us are nowhere near.
So that's where the laws come in because it won't happen any other way.
It's funny how no one talks about radical male chauvinists because that's the majority of men the world.
And don't anyone ask me to cite anything at all.
Go to any feminist website and have a look.
The most radical of feminist aren't taken very seriously, but Tf is by a lot of people.
Good on him for being correct about everything and in the process damaging a movement that is important and good for both men and women alike.
And I don't fucking care what anyone else thinks, this is what I think.

(September 26, 2014 at 9:01 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: I think the point Godslayer was trying to make was that feminism is supposed to be about gender equality and yet it would appear that they only focus on female issues when they should be focusing on both.

I don't think repeating the fallacious argument makes it any better. Interest groups specialize, they are allowed to, and the mere fact that they opt to do so rather than spreading themselves thin by addressing every tangentially related issue does not invalidate their central tenets.

In this case, feminism finds its roots in a time and place where there were very real inequalities for women that needed to be addressed, and the movement was established to do so. It is a gender equality movement with a specific focus on those areas where things are unequal for women; having that particular focus does not entail an automatic lack of care for inequality toward men. It's just not germane to this particular group.

I find it kinda odd that I even need to explain this, really. You're in an atheist forum, surely you've seen the responses to the oft repeated "atheists deny god!" claim; not being actively involved in one thing does not mean you should leap to the contra-positive. Why would it be any different here? Again, this is exactly like scoffing at cancer research because where are those cancer doctors now that there's an ebola outbreak?

Quote: It is quite understandable for feminists to be outraged at something sexist on tv or at work when it is to do with women, but they never seem to even notice or address the issues men have. When was the last time you saw Anita Sarkeesian or any prominent feminist campaigning for men to get equal custody of a child or for men and women to get the same prison sentence for the same crime?

Earlier this year, I think? I wish I could find the article, but right now even the correct search terms elude me. The point is, as I've pointed out numerous times- and I'm not the only one to do this in feminist media, so your inability to see it does not reflect the paucity of reference material- that addressing widely held thinking regarding gender roles the way feminism seeks to also has positive knock-on effects for men. Really think about it: what causes custody inequality for men? At it's root, what's the reasoning that leads to this?

Could it be that women are supposed to be nurturing, motherly, child-rearing figures, while men are supposed to be distant providers, and can't they do that equally well through alimony? And gee, doesn't that seem like a piece of that "women's work" crap that feminism seeks to erase?

It's the same with the prison time thing: why would it be that women get lighter sentencing? I would bet it has a lot to do with how our culture traditionally views male and female agency, and also their respective abilities to handle harsh environments like prison. Seems like feminism is trying to correct that sort of imbalance too.

Quote: When did you last hear them complaining about objectification of men?

Do you seriously think that this is a problem in modern society? I mean, do you actually think that this is a widespread issue, rather than this just being a grasping-at-straws kind of thing?

Quote: Anyone seen Magic Mike?

Because, see, when you go here, it really seems like the latter.

Quote: It's a film about male strippers,

Which, in itself, isn't even really an issue. Sexual content isn't the same as sexual objectification, even if the idea of men's bodies being displayed for a female gaze might make you uncomfortable. That said, no, I haven't seen Magic Mike; my point here is that "it's a movie about male strippers," is not a point of objectification in isolation.

Quote: can you imagine the feminists backlash if it was a film about female strippers? And yet we hear nothing from them.

Uh... do you... I mean... Do you know just how many movies there are exactly about female strippers to this one about male strippers? Surely you can see that this is something of a reach, to make this seem like it's any kind of pressing or widespread issue?