Minimalist, someone I met on jesusneverexisted.org, has introduced me to this forum. I look forward to participating. I post videos on YouTube regarding Islamo-Christianity and other crazy things in our world. I'm a deist which I often like to say is "just like atheism (pause) except for that part where we believe in God". I'm also one of the co-organizers of the local atheist group here in my home town.

Against the odds, I was actually raised in an agnostic house here in the middle of Bible-belt America. My interest in religion developed when I started going to church because I heard it was a good way to meet women. That didn't work out very well (thankfully, I'm now happily married to a pantheist) but it did give me a chance to learn a little about what it is that Christians believe.

I ran into this fundy guy who seemed eager to talk to me about Jesus. When I asked him to explain (which is like pulling the string on a talking doll), I learned that Christians believe that we are sinners because an ancestor of mine who was made from a rib ate a magic fruit after speaking with a talking snake. That's how this thing called "sin" entered the world which is kind of like this big invisible oil spill that gets all over everything but nobody except these Christians know about it. In particular, it seems to get into your heart although it doesn't appear to affect the function of this blood pumping organ. One wonders why God would plant such a dangerous tree in the first place but that part is never explained.

Christians believe that God tried to solve the problem of sin and violence in the world first by trying to kill every living thing in the world, fighting fire with fire it would seem. Noah, the righteous drunkard, was spared along with his family, leaving the reader to wonder who his grand children could breed with. Then again, I'm from Kentucky so that might explain why no one seems to be bothered by the implied non-forking family tree that we all come from.

That didn't work out so well so the Christian god formed a new plan. He sent himself down to earth to become a human being. Then, in human form, he sacrificed himself to himself. Doing so was the only way that he could convince himself to forgive all of us for being such sinful beings, which we are because the rib-woman ate from the tree that he planted in the first place. We all know that bloody human sacrifice makes everything better because... well, that part's never explained either.

It's not important exactly why bleeding on a cross solves any problems of evil in the world. The important thing to understand, Christians claim, is that Jesus loves each and every one of us. He just loves us so much. And if we don't believe the story I've just related, he's going to have to send us all to a place where we'll be tortured forever.

As I began to read the Bible, I learned that this guy wasn't nuts. In fact, he was relating the story as faithfully as any Christian apologist might. This knowledge, combined with the events of 9/11, inspired me to get involved in the freethought movement. I don't think all religions are dangerous. I've never heard of a Buddhist suicide bomber. It seems that it's the belief in a salvation scheme and a devil to fight against are the deal-breakers. These things are what seem to cause sectarian violence more than anything else. Others might have their own ideas here.

Hope to contribute to this discussion board.

Quote:He just loves us so much. And if we don't believe the story I've just related, he's going to have to send us all to a place where we'll be tortured forever.

It always sounds so silly when you say it!

Welcome! I look forward to reading your input. I'm also quite curious about your deism and look forward to hearing more about your beliefs.

(June 26, 2010 at 4:06 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: Welcome! I look forward to reading your input. I'm also quite curious about your deism and look forward to hearing more about your beliefs.

Credo (I believe):

1. We live in a natural universe governed by predictable laws and best understood through science and reason.

2. Said natural universe is wonderful enough. We don't need parting waters or sticks turning to snakes to have a sense of awe of the sublime.

3. We humans could be described as "rational animals" (a quote I heard once from a deist author), which means we're clearly kin to the animals but endowed with higher reasoning skills. It therefore can't be a "sin" to use critical thinking, since that's part of our design.

4. I lack a positive belief in any afterlife. I'm open-minded as to what is the cause of consciousness. If "souls" exist, they're part of the natural universe and would have properties that can one day be understood. For now, I'm prepared to accept consciousness is an emergent property of the brain, that this life is all we get, that God gives us one shot at the brass ring and then it's fade-to-black-roll-the-credits (I'm curious what my theme music will sound like). If I'm wrong, I'll deal with that when it comes, confident that God has more important character qualities on which to judge me than what my metaphysical beliefs were.

5. Morality is a function of how we treat our fellow sentient beings. The three commandments I try to live by are "act with integrity", "respect the rights of others" and "take responsibility for your actions". I came by these commandments as I questioned myself as to why I felt like events or actions I'd seen were "wrong". Why are they wrong? What's so objectionable about them? Answering these questions are how I came by these three "rules" which seem to cover all the bases.

6. "God" is defined as the mysterious First Cause of said natural universe. My sense of awe of the natural universe and the potential of the human mind are what give me say "God" with reverence. In advance, I know that won't be enough to convince others (most of my friends, family and freethinkers I work with are atheists). I don't care. I'm not here to convince anyone. I have no "souls" to save. Lack of belief in others doesn't bother me.

7. Once you accept point #1, the distinctions between atheism, deism, pantheism, agnosticism (whatever your definition of that might be), etc. are hair-splitting abstract philosophical issues of no importance to day to day life. Were I to switch to atheism tomorrow, my life wouldn't change. It would be annoying though, since I'd have to get a new YouTube account. Also, "TheAtheistPaladin" is already taken.

8. Because of #7, I think all freethinkers of all kinds should unite to create a more rational world.

9. ...that everyone should have the freedom and courage to pursue their own answers to these ancient questions (who am I? Why are we here? etc.). I won't tell anyone why they should be a deist and not an atheist (although one of the benefits is you get to identify with great thinkers from history who had fantastic hair).

10. Human beings have a noble destiny. Instead of this end-times crap, which could be a self-fulfilling prophecy, I believe that we are evolving* not just biologically but also morally. Things which used to be accepted, like slavery or inequality, no longer are. I believe that trend will continue. Maybe our future isn't going to be "Star Trek" but it will be better. This belief has been battered mercilessly by reality for the last decade but I still hold it.

*Yes, I know evolution isn't necessarily progressive but has to do with adaptation to a given environment but I'm using the colloquial term.

Ready to discuss.

Welcome!

You're clearly a great addition to the forums. I look forward to many interesting discussions with you.

A deist is an atheist with hope, however unfounded it could be.

Welcome.

LOL, Syn. I've told him that a deist is an atheist who is afraid to let go with the other hand!

(June 26, 2010 at 6:21 pm)Minimalist Wrote: LOL, Syn. I've told him that a deist is an atheist who is afraid to let go with the other hand!

Thanks, DeistPaladin. That was a great explanation. We do seem to believe (basically) the same things, with one glaring exception. Heheh. I like to put things in a nutshell to see if I understand correctly, so here goes...

When it comes the existence of a deity part, you basically believe in the 'Einsteinian God', except that you go one step further and attribute sentience and conscious intent to it. In essence, turning it into an actual 'being'. Is that correct? (I am simply asking, not trying to start a debate or anything)

As a deist, is it correct to assume that you believe this deity created the universe and then never interacted with it? Do you have theories as to why? Is he gone? Is he simply watching?

(June 27, 2010 at 10:14 am)Paul the Human Wrote: Thanks, DeistPaladin. That was a great explanation. We do seem to believe (basically) the same things, with one glaring exception. Heheh. I like to put things in a nutshell to see if I understand correctly, so here goes...

When it comes the existence of a deity part, you basically believe in the 'Einsteinian God', except that you go one step further and attribute sentience and conscious intent to it. In essence, turning it into an actual 'being'. Is that correct? (I am simply asking, not trying to start a debate or anything)

As a deist, is it correct to assume that you believe this deity created the universe and then never interacted with it? Do you have theories as to why? Is he gone? Is he simply watching?

Let me start by saying that you need not tread lightly when asking about what I believe. A lot of curious atheists seem to, for good reason I think, given my own experiences with angry Christians. I hypothesize that if someone really believes something, they don't get angry about it.

I have a video on the "hurt feelings" card going into more detail that I suddenly feel the need to share:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-T4FN1xqB0

But getting back to your questions, yes, your observation is correct that my idea of God is much closer to those of Einstein, Spinoza and Hawking than it is to the one of Moses, Paul or Muhammad. I also quote various well-known atheists on my own website regarding the shared sense of awe of the universe. Sagan, Dawkins and even the gloomy Hitchens have expressed such sentiments.

Given the size and time-scale involved, I'm inclined to think that a being that sets it in motion would be to us like a scientist is to bacteria cells cultivated in a petri dish. Dawkins has talked about how believers want a "little god, a petty god" because the scale implied by the universe doesn't easily permit the personal god. And I don't know that God has never interfered with our development. A lot came together in the evolution of our minds. We might have been cultivated. If you're familiar with "Babylon 5", like the Vorlons did with telepaths.

Of course, all this is speculation. It's just that I see the universe as a machine that "must" have some mysterious mind behind it, one that is beyond our current comprehension. I put the "must" in quotes because I realize I could be completely deluded here. One indication might be if there's a lot of intelligent life elsewhere. For the deist model to hold (or my version of God as the scientist cultivating life), I would expect to find that we're not the only ones. If it is just us, it looks increasingly like earth just won the "cosmic lottery" and we were lucky to get this far.