(November 30, 2014 at 4:52 pm)Lek Wrote: We have to live how Jesus taught us to live. Jesus is the fulfillment of the old covenant and has paid the penalty for sin. It's him who we are to follow. That's the message of the bible. The old testament times were terrible times before the price for sin was paid and we came under God's grace.

See, that's the problem. Jesus said, he didn't come to change the law.

I know, I know, you can do the mind acrobatics by claiming he fulfilled the law by dying, but he also said to hate one's parents, children, siblings to follow him and that's not what I intend to do anytime soon.

(November 30, 2014 at 4:52 pm)Lek Wrote:

(November 30, 2014 at 4:27 pm)Chad32 Wrote: The problem is that there are a lot of messages of the bible, and you can find verses to justify anything that you already believe in. Hence the thousands of sects, and a history of violence and persecution, despite Jesus' attempts at a more positive message than that of the old testament.

We have to live how Jesus taught us to live. Jesus is the fulfillment of the old covenant and has paid the penalty for sin. It's him who we are to follow. That's the message of the bible. The old testament times were terrible times before the price for sin was paid and we came under God's grace.

I thought the old testament was a horrible time because of that deity that committed mass murder, and ordered more of it, instead of actually working to improve society.

Living like Jesus lived is easier said than done. The whole worship Yahweh above all else is pretty clear, but loving your neighbor as yourself while also hating yourself and all tht you'd normally care about is a bit iffy. Also loving your neighbor can be hard when Jesus says it's best to drown people rather than let them lead people away from christianity. Also he perpetuates the idea of thought crime, and turns a blind eye to slavery.

(November 30, 2014 at 4:13 pm)IATIA Wrote: You apparently have not actually read the bible. It would seem that your only conversation with the bible is through the 'pretty' sunday school excerpts.

No. It's you who haven't read the bible if you believe that it says that it's okay for us to smash babies' heads against the wall. It you're going to judge the bible, then judge it in it's entirety.

(November 30, 2014 at 5:27 pm)Lek Wrote: No. It's you who haven't read the bible if you believe that it says that it's okay for us to smash babies heads against the wall.

Psalm 137:9

Quote: Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

I know, he doesn't order it, he's only looking forward for it to happen. Nice one to worship.

If you find a family who doesn't believe in Yahweh, you're expected to kill them. With the exception of the young virgin girls, who you can keep as spoils. Whether you think that's not ok now, it was ok at one point. I don't recall Yahweh or Jesus making any formal apology for this change at any point.

(November 30, 2014 at 5:30 pm)abaris Wrote:

(November 30, 2014 at 5:27 pm)Lek Wrote: No. It's you who haven't read the bible if you believe that it says that it's okay for us to smash babies heads against the wall.

Psalm 137:9

Quote: Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

I know, he doesn't order it, he's only looking forward for it to happen. Nice one to worship.

Yeah. King David was happy that God was going to punish Babylon for their atrocities committed against other nations which were, by the way much worse that. I don't know that he should have been happy about it. God did command the Israelites to do that in the destruction of Babylon, but we are not allowed to go find some babies and bash their heads against the wall. Of course, there are times when we are required to go to war and kill people in defense of others.

(November 30, 2014 at 5:44 pm)Lek Wrote: Of course, there are times when we are required to go to war and kill people in defense of others.

Babies?

It talks about babies. There's no wiggling about it.

And king David was a real nice person too.

Quote: Chronicles 20:3 - KJB - And he brought out the people that were in it, AND CUT THEM WITH SAWS, AND WITH HARROWS OF IRON, AND WITH AXES. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. And David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.

I know, there's some dodging going on about that in the christian community.

(November 30, 2014 at 5:40 pm)Chad32 Wrote: If you find a family who doesn't believe in Yahweh, you're expected to kill them. With the exception of the young virgin girls, who you can keep as spoils. Whether you think that's not ok now, it was ok at one point. I don't recall Yahweh or Jesus making any formal apology for this change at any point.

No apology needed. These cities and countries were under God's judgment for their opposition to God, and their total depravity. The whole world were "objects of God's wrath" as the apostle Paul stated. They weren't really "nice" people. I'm not trying to be flippant. These were terrible times, and the acts of God in the old testament seem just as terrible to me as they do to you.

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(November 30, 2014 at 5:47 pm)abaris Wrote: And king David was a real nice person too.

I know, there's some dodging going on about that in the christian community.

King David was not always a "nice" person. He was a murderer, for one. God punished him by taking his newborn son. What dodging am I doing?

What total depravity is worse than what Yahweh did in the old testament? This wasn't about depravity. It was about not worshiping Yahweh.

They must not be as terrible to you as they are to me, because you're the one trying to defend the guy. It's like even one of the best parts of the old testament, where Yahweh is freeing the Israelites from slavery, he still forces the pharaoh to refuse Moses just so he can continue the plagues and kill children.

Killing David's son isn't a punishment. It's an inconvenience. He could have made more.

(November 30, 2014 at 5:51 pm)Lek Wrote: King David was not always a "nice" person. He was a murderer, for one. God punished him by taking his newborn son. What dodging am I doing?

I didn't adress you in person, but I know that there's a movement trying to claim that David didn't kill the persons in question, but put them to work, although the bible is pretty explicit in this regard.

Also I want to point out, that David's murder isn't the big deal compared to what he did as a war lord.

But I notice, you did overlook my point about deliberately killing babies in times of war.