Garden of Eden was a setup...

[JonDarbyXIII]

So are you saying that Hitler killing all those Jews was not evil, but just a matter of preference, based on his opinion?

I realize that a lot of people might disagree with me on this, but yes, I do think it was a matter of preference and opinion. That said, I in no way condone that. I think it was a horrible atrocity. Here's the thing though: I think that... Hitler obviously didn't. Hitler had his reasoning as to why he thought that was perfectly acceptible (most of the reasoning, in fact, came from the Bible and Catholic tradition). To him, and obviously to most of his followers, this was 'good.' We can say now that, regardless of what he thought, it was still 'evil,' but if Germany had won WWII, there's a chance we could all be agreeing with him now.

Granted this still does not make it 'right.' Hitler could have won the war and imposed an 'evil' position upon the world, but that's exactly where we see the subjectivity of morals over time and across cultures. What's 'right' now may be 'wrong' 2,000 years from now. (Don't we see exactly this in the Bible?)

Some basic principles apply across most of these lines eg "It is wrong to kill someone without cause." However it is the application of these morals that are subjective so far as we can define the terms. To Hitler, the Jews were not "someone." They were "nothing." And moreover, he certainly did not feel that he was killing them "without cause."

[robvalue]

God does plenty of evil. He admits he is the creator of good and evil. (Some people try and worm out of it and say it's calamity, but that's still pretty bad!)

He sends evil spirits. He commands murder, rape, and infanticide. He allows human sacrifice in his bargains with men. He gives you guidelines on how badly you can beat your slaves and not be accountable. Oh yeah, and he doesn't forbid slaves. He says where you can buy them from. He screws with people's free will so that he can cause more plagues and wars.

He kills people himself for the most ridiculous reasons, seemingly just because he can.

In fact, if you wanted to come up with a more evil being, I don't think you could.

All apologists do is try and "tap dance" around this by interpreting (making up) the text, giving lame justifications for why god "had to" act that way, or why it's somehow OK. Eventually, if you think hard enough about it all, you'll see it's a losing battle. There is no justification for this monster. So you'll be relieved if/when you figure out he is fictional, because the only "evidence" is a made up book. It's just a book.

If god has any interest in proving me wrong and all his followers right, he's welcome to come down here and kick my sorry ass. I'm sure apologists can tap dance reasons why he's not doing that, even when I invite him to. Actually, I invite him to kill me right now. You have my permission, kill me god. You've done it for much less. I say this with no fear at all.

Sure they may be some sort of "god" thing that made our universe. But if there is, there's absolutely no possible reason to think it has anything in common with the devil in disguise, the god of the bible. Or any of the other man made gods. If you have confidence in your faith and your reasons then you have nothing to worry about when thinking and asking questions. We're not hear trying to trick people, we get nothing out of it.

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Once you learn about evolution, you'll see that the garden of eden is just another piece of fiction. The DNA evidence alone is justification enough that we have a common ancestor with apes. Evolution is a scientific fact, it's not in dispute by anyone who actually understands what it is, and has any integrity. If anyone wants to show why it is wrong, they have got a lot of reading to do first. Or else they will just sound like complete morons, attacking a fortified castle with a banana.

All I ask of theists is to learn, and to think.

[Cyberman]

Please, for the love of God, or as some of you might put it for the love of the idea that there is no God, be patient.

Generally speaking, atheists aren't the ones expressing that idea. Outside of theist strawmen, of course.

I know, I know - you said "some", not all, and I'm spoiling the joke.

[robvalue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0A4_bwCaX0