(August 8, 2010 at 4:25 am)ABierman1986 Wrote: The development of sentience could then be a universal attempt to examine itself and the human sense of god is the true semblance coming through.

Perhaps this underlying energy that permeates the universe interacts with itself in a way we can't understand...

These two statements seem quite profound to me. As to the first, what if the human being has simply evolved the concept of God (and everyone has a personal God) so as to use that primordial force more effectively. In other words, perhaps people who invent a personal God then use that notion to better understand the ultimate primordial consciousness and thus become more "enlightened" in general. Perhaps there is an evolutionary advantage to that. Let's face it, people who believe we are nothing but atoms and dirt will not be inclined to do the things that have propelled man forward thus far. But people who have believed in God have done heroic things, built cathedrals and magnificent structures like pyramids, Stonehenge, etc., and produced fantastic art and literature, which all of education is ultimately built upon. Perhaps people like Jesus Christ simply had a better "god" so to speak than others.

I mean, think about it, the mystical experience of advanced religious practitioners is almost the same across all religions: a sense of oneness with the universe. Couldn't it be that there is an evolutionary advantage given to those who are able to channel this primordial consciousness? I don't know, but I'm interested in what you think.

Because one thing we all know: Consciousness is real. And the more that matter has of it, the better able it is to thrive. If you consider rocks to plants to animals.

I would argue a number of your points. Humans could well have evolved the concept of god in the manner you speak of, but this line of thinking cannot end there. That is a possibly testable hypothesis with observable results. It is reckless to draw any conclusions without the necessary support.

Humans may be inclined to do fantastic things in the name of god but that does not mean the name of god is the driver. The forces that propel humans forward have numerous possible and testable scientific explanations and belief in atoms and dirt or God and Jesus could very well (and probably do as numerous unbiased studies have shown) have zero effect on what drives us.

Mystical experiences of religious practitioners who have allowed themselves to be imaged (neural imaging) during their trances or deep meditations have shown very real and measurable changes in brainwave activity that are reconcilable physiologically with the feelings reported, from hearing the voice of god to out of body experiences.

If the complex systems theory can be used here then the evolutionary advantage of our intelligence is to allow us to expend this energy optimally and ensure our lineage continues to proceed with the process. Again, the possibilities you describe can't be ruled out, but they can't be concluded either.

(August 8, 2010 at 5:45 am)Edward the Theist Wrote: I mean, think about it, the mystical experience of advanced religious practitioners is almost the same across all religions: a sense of oneness with the universe. Couldn't it be that there is an evolutionary advantage given to those who are able to channel this primordial consciousness? I don't know, but I'm interested in what you think.

Richard Dawkins has answered the question about religious advantage.
But what is 'primordial conciousness' as you understand it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYwWZ9QTNLE

(August 8, 2010 at 6:01 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Richard Dawkins has answered the question about religious advantage.
But what is 'primordial conciousness' as you understand it?

Thanks, I'll check out that video.

As for primordial consciousness, I don't know. I have this idea (more like an obsession really) I can't shake it but I can't adequately describe it. It's like combining consciousness with eternity. And this will sound stupid, but I seem to get an idea of it if I imagine a white wall that is all I can see, and I am racing towards it at incredible speed, but I never get to it.

It's hard to explain, but one time I was walking on a flightline at an Air Force base ( I was in the AF at one time) and there was a C-5 aircraft parked there. The plane is so big that as you walk up to it, you think you are getting near to it only to realize your further away from it than you think. That's what the white wall is like.

And because the wall is white, and it's all you see, eventually you lose all memories, all sense of self, all reflection on ideas, everything and all there is is the racing toward the white. Then you are in an eternal moment that is completely atemporal. You are in a present moment, conscious without any awareness of self or anything else.

I say all of that simply to describe my notion of what I think it was like before the universe existed. I have no terminology for it at this time. I call it primordial consciousness (but I don't like that term), conscious/eternity, but that's not really good. I just don't know at this time.

I have demonstrable, repeatable evidence that consciousness does not exist in the brain, cannot in fact, as well as some serious thought experiments to go along with that. So I tend to believe consciousness (of a form) exists throughout the universe. I know that time is relative and illusory, and that everything is a present moment, so I know "eternity" is the real state of things.

And all of this is the void I find myself in. It's my work, so to speak.

What is this evidence?

(August 8, 2010 at 6:23 am)Edward the Theist Wrote: I have demonstrable, repeatable evidence that consciousness does not exist in the brain, cannot in fact, as well as some serious thought experiments to go along with that. So I tend to believe consciousness (of a form) exists throughout the universe. I know that time is relative and illusory, and that everything is a present moment, so I know "eternity" is the real state of things.

And all of this is the void I find myself in. It's my work, so to speak.

Lets see this evidence then, this is a major claim and one that will require major proof.

(August 8, 2010 at 6:29 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Lets see this evidence then, this is a major claim and one that will require major proof.

I will present it. I'm going to sign of for now, but what I'll do is put it on my blog. I'll do it as a whole thing and link a youtube video as well, and lay out the case. But I'll come back in here (assuming I'm not banned) and present it as well. I want it on my blog first, for my own sake, but I'll publish it here too and discuss or debate it here.

In fact, I may do this over the next 4 or 5 days, because you're correct that this is a major claim and I think it will be a big part of the foundation of my cosmological theory. After all, if consciousness is just something that radiates from the brains of living animals, then my theory doesn't really count for much.

But I've done a lot of research in this area and a lot of study, I have a lot of material, and I work in a field that deals with consciousness somewhat first hand (I'm a psychiatric nurse), so I want to present this in this forum correctly and professionally.

What I'm asking is bear with me. In fact, I may not spend a lot of time in here over the next several days as I prepare this. Because now that I've laid it out there, there isn't much more to talk about until I present it.

I'm glad we had this talk tonight. It has really helped me focus.

Thanks,

Edward