(May 14, 2015 at 7:09 pm)dahrling Wrote:

(May 14, 2015 at 5:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: You've made a number of mistakes in your OP, so I'd like to address them here.

First, God has no wants or needs. He is perfect in and of Himself.

Well, here's a passage in Deuteronomy, 

And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul," Deuteronomy 10:12

Here we are told god asked something of someone. Now, tell me, why would someone ask, that is, require something of someone, if they possessed the resources to provide for their own needs or desires in the first place?

Got kids? Ever coach a little league team? We require things of others that are in their best interest, don't we? And if we who are mere human parents and coaches ask of those of whom we have charge, how much more would it be reasonable to understand that God may require things of us in preparation for entering into His presence?

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(May 14, 2015 at 5:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Second, God is infinite, and it is not possible for finite man to love an infinite God that would address His infinite need even if He had one. (see #1 above).

If God is infinite, and he didn't need a creator, why do we?
And why do we need infinite love if he doesn't? (Didn't you say god has no wants or needs?)

Because unlike God, we are not infinite.

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(May 14, 2015 at 5:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Third, God allows us free will so that WE may love Him which is the highest act WE may perform. IOW, God created us and gave us free will for OUR benefit, not His.

Now, if babies are raped as a consequence of God's decision to give us free will, the responsibility for the rape still falls on the person who chooses to commit that act because other options were available to that person. No one is forced to commit rape in the normal course of daily life.

If god gave us the free will to rape, murder, and commit "sins", then he is guilty of being an accessory to these crimes. He is the creator of humankind, therefore he is responsible for us, and he allowed humankind to become corrupt as he watched us descend into "evil". He is, at the very least, an accomplice. 

No. God did not participate nor assist us in choosing to sin against Him. He does not provide aid nor material support of any type to those who wish to do things that are offensive to Him and to us.

It might make people feel less guilty or even guilt-free to pursue this line of reasoning when they are doing things which they know in their heart of hearts that they should not do, but it is a dead end. Truly. Dead.

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(May 14, 2015 at 7:15 pm)Minimalist Wrote: How come your 'god' didn't know that Saul would disobey...disobey btw in not murdering everyone that fucking god wanted murdered.

Shouldn't an omniscient god have a clue?

God did know that Saul would disobey. That's not what is at work here.

And now the test...do you REALLY want an answer? 

Because your exact verse is covered in depth here:

God Does Not Repent Like a Man
By John Piper
{snip}
[/quote]

Mod hat on: Please read The rules: no links until you've been a member 30 days and you've contributed 30 posts.

(May 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Got kids? Ever coach a little league team? We require things of others that are in their best interest, don't we? And if we who are mere human parents and coaches ask of those of whom we have charge, how much more would it be reasonable to understand that God may require things of us in preparation for entering into His presence?

Yawn. This argument is so old that it has grown a beard touching the floor.

God, according to your believe (I was Catholic too, you know) is omnipotent and omniscent. So, following that line of thought, he knows what you will do at every moment in your life before you are even born. The caring parent argument doesn't fly.

(May 14, 2015 at 8:00 pm)abaris Wrote:

(May 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Got kids? Ever coach a little league team? We require things of others that are in their best interest, don't we? And if we who are mere human parents and coaches ask of those of whom we have charge, how much more would it be reasonable to understand that God may require things of us in preparation for entering into His presence?

Yawn. This argument is so old that it has grown a beard touching the floor.

God, according to your believe (I was Catholic too, you know) is omnipotent and omniscent. So, following that line of thought, he knows what you will do at every moment in your life before you are even born. The caring parent argument doesn't fly.

I'm not following you.

Yes, God is omnipotent and omniscient. And because He cares for us, he directs us and asks us to do things that are for our good.

How does that not follow? I do the same with my kids.


I direct them to take a bath and brush their teeth. I tell them to do their homework. I ask them to help clean the house EVEN THOUGH I COULD DO IT FASTER MYSELF because they are being trained.

Make sense?

(May 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Got kids? Ever coach a little league team? We require things of others that are in their best interest, don't we? And if we who are mere human parents and coaches ask of those of whom we have charge, how much more would it be reasonable to understand that God may require things of us in preparation for entering into His presence?

No, I do not require anything of others if it is in their best interest. 
And that is the problem with your argument. If god requires us to worship him, then he is the one who needs us. 

(May 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Because unlike God, we are not infinite.

That's a great way to both start and end arguments. "It's like this because god says it is."

(May 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: No. God did not participate nor assist us in choosing to sin against Him. He does not provide aid nor material support of any type to those who wish to do things that are offensive to Him and to us.



It might make people feel less guilty or even guilt-free to pursue this line of reasoning when they are doing things which they know in their heart of hearts that they should not do, but it is a dead end. Truly. Dead.

Isn't god omnipresent and omnipotent? If so, at this very moment he is currently observing someone (somewhere in the world) being raped or murdered or harassed, and that person might even be crying for his help, but he is choosing not to intervene. And if he is choosing not to intervene while observing a crime that he has the power to stop then he's an accomplice to it. 

(May 14, 2015 at 8:56 pm)dahrling Wrote:

(May 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Got kids? Ever coach a little league team? We require things of others that are in their best interest, don't we? And if we who are mere human parents and coaches ask of those of whom we have charge, how much more would it be reasonable to understand that God may require things of us in preparation for entering into His presence?

No, I do not require anything of others if it is in their best interest. 
And that is the problem with your argument. If god requires us to worship him, then he is the one who needs us. 

Uh...no. If God requires us to give to the poor, its because it is in OUR best interest to do so. If God requires that we put down that second twinky and fast, it's because it benefits us.

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(May 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Because unlike God, we are not infinite.

That's a great way to both start and end arguments. "It's like this because god says it is."

Not exactly. God is by definition, infinite, immortal, etc. We, clearly, are not.

You're just miffed because you didn't think of it first.  

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(May 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: No. God did not participate nor assist us in choosing to sin against Him. He does not provide aid nor material support of any type to those who wish to do things that are offensive to Him and to us.

It might make people feel less guilty or even guilt-free to pursue this line of reasoning when they are doing things which they know in their heart of hearts that they should not do, but it is a dead end. Truly. Dead.

Isn't god omnipresent and omnipotent? If so, at this very moment he is currently observing someone (somewhere in the world) being raped or murdered or harassed, and that person might even be crying for his help, but he is choosing not to intervene. And if he is choosing not to intervene while observing a crime that he has the power to stop then he's an accomplice to it. 

If God denied the rapist her free will to rape some dude, He would not be acting fairly toward her, would He?

Now to be fair, we don't really have any way of knowing how many rapes God DOES prevent in one way or another. Perhaps someone reading this thread tonight will decide to open his Bible instead of attacking the old woman who lives next door. Who knows?

However, you are also overlooking the fact that God has all of eternity to shower blessing beyond imagining upon those who do suffer in this life. So, without meaning to sound overly callous, the finite amount of suffering we experience in this life is nothing compared to the infinite riches of His reward.

"Suck up the shit now - you'll be better off when you're dead."

The diktat of kings and clergy throughout the ages. Sorry, no sale.

(May 14, 2015 at 9:38 pm)Stimbo Wrote: "Suck up the shit now - you'll be better off when you're dead."

The diktat of kings and clergy throughout the ages. Sorry, no sale.

What I co-inky dink...I'm not selling anything.

Just hoping for a little rational thought and logic from the folks I chat with.

Then I too hope for the same in reciprocation. You're not selling, I'm not buying - what is there to chat about in this direction?

Oh, and just a side note - I do hope we're not getting the full Ned Flanders impression. It's more wearing than endearing.

(May 14, 2015 at 10:08 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Then I too hope for the same in reciprocation. You're not selling, I'm not buying - what is there to chat about in this direction?

Dunno.

I was responding to dahrling...