(June 4, 2015 at 8:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 7:42 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: I should have expected you to evade the question, given how you have been ignoring it for so long.

Losty is right.  Sex is not frightening, or should not be. Children are curious about it, and often ask about it, except when their elders react badly to such questions.  So you are giving a false analogy.

If you think sex is comparable to hell for a woman, you must be doing something terribly wrong when you have sex.

LOL. 

Okay, kid. I'm sure you've gotten laid a time or two. You may have even been sober enough to remember it.

But I was not comparing sex to hell. I was saying that lots of things are scary to small children - hell and sex can both be scary at inappropriate ages. If some parents try to scare their kids into behaving with threats of hell or the boogey man or whatever, that's bad parenting. It's not bad theology.

Try to grasp the big concepts here, okay?

Woah, judgmental much? 

I'm pretty sure the man you're speaking with is married. Not that it makes much difference. You certainly don't know him well enough to make these judgments about him. 

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what being good is. Ignoring other people's requests is extremely offensive to me.

(June 4, 2015 at 8:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Given your beliefs, what I'm about to say next may blow your mind...and you can do whatever you want with it, okay?

There are saints to whom God has revealed things about heaven, hell, and purgatory. The souls in purgatory (and hell) ARE suffering the effects of fire (whether this is literal or figurative is less certain). The joke is that purgatory and hell share the same heating system. Kinda funny...until you think about it.

Anyway, the souls in Purgatory who have been permitted to ask the living saints for prayers, masses, etc., have reported that the separation from God and the regret for lost opportunities in this life are GREATER sources of torment than the actual flames themselves.

And, btw, the souls in hell are also tormented by the fallen angels or demons.

Now, the writings of these saints are available in books. But you have other things to occupy your time, so no need to consider any of this, right?

How do you know this is true?

(May 26, 2015 at 7:29 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: If there is no God, then there is no hell; and if there is no hell, then there are no ultimate, eternal repercussions, good or bad, for how we live out our mortal lives. Of course, atheists insist that people should be "good without God."

But why? If God does not exist, why be good?

Where is your authority to claim that if a god doesn't exist than there is no eternal repercussions?  
Says who?  You?  Who are you again?

As far as I'm aware, atheism means no belief in a god.  True, most atheists don't believe in any form of afterlife, but I have met a small few who are open to the idea of an afterlife without god.  

My only point here is that you created a non-sequitur in your OP simply by assigning the afterlife to a god.  There are many, both believer and non believer who would dispute your small mindedness and your unsupported assertion.  

(June 4, 2015 at 7:09 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 6:51 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Your description of hell as separation from god (despite mentions of hellfire) in various places.  

Before I forget...there is nothing "extra-biblical" about Purgatory...there are lots of verses that refer to Purgatory - though the word itself (like "trinity") does not appear.

But as for your request, here is one passage:

Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

That passage from Matthew chapter 25 is basic Zoroastrian philosophy as is all of the passages that discuss righteousness and angels.  Christianity incorporates a lot of Zoroastrian doctrine, especially the ideas of the savior and the trinity.  

(June 4, 2015 at 8:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Jenny-

Given your beliefs, what I'm about to say next may blow your mind...and you can do whatever you want with it, okay?

There are saints to whom God has revealed things about heaven, hell, and purgatory. The souls in purgatory (and hell) ARE suffering the effects of fire (whether this is literal or figurative is less certain). The joke is that purgatory and hell share the same heating system. Kinda funny...until you think about it.

Anyway, the souls in Purgatory who have been permitted to ask the living saints for prayers, masses, etc., have reported that the separation from God and the regret for lost opportunities in this life are GREATER sources of torment than the actual flames themselves.

And, btw, the souls in hell are also tormented by the fallen angels or demons.

Now, the writings of these saints are available in books. But you have other things to occupy your time, so no need to consider any of this, right?

Blow my mind no.  I'm well aware that Catholics believe a variety of extra-Biblical things.  That in part was what the Reformation was about.  I simply asked if there were biblical authority.  You could have just said, no, if that's the answer.  And I wouldn't have asked, if you didn't have a thread devoted to attempting to prove god via the bible.

I've no real interest in whether the protestants or the catholics are right about purgatory or limbo, etc. because to me it's a non-question.   Until there's some kind of real evidence of god, it a moot point as far as I'm concerned. 

Did you do whatever you wanted with that, Jenny? I know I did.

(June 4, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 3, 2015 at 5:18 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: How can an immaterial being exist in a material world?

And more to the point, how can you, or any other human (including the ones who wrote the Bible) know anything about the immaterial?

Well, in one sense, God is outside of space and time, Parker, so He doesn't exist "in" a material world. OTOH, God became incarnate and took on our flesh, so there's that.

In other words, bald assertion with no evidence?

Yeah, I'll pass. You got anything better?

(June 4, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: But we know of God in a number of ways including:

1. Reason. We can look at the created universe and discern a designer.

Not necessarily. If there was a designer, he designed the appendix, cancer, bubonic plague, and so on. He designed black holes that swallow up everything around them, he designed humans who chops the heads off of their enemies, and impacted wisdom teeth. He designed humans susceptible to temptation, a Universe largely hostile to their existence, and then your padres designed a religion to convince everyone that he is good.

Sorry, sounds like bullshit to me. Try again?

(June 4, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: 2. We have the natural law of God written upon our hearts which causes us to consider its source.

Lol. The heart is not paper, morality is noticeable by its absence in Christians -- especially you Catholics -- and your own Bible bespeaks the horrors he has ordered.

This point of yours is the objection of someone who has not thought through his own morality. You exemplify the tendency of Christianity to make its followers morally blase.

(June 4, 2015 at 5:28 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: 3. God can reveal Himself to us in various ways - individually and corporately.

Evidence?

Please tell me you're capable of a more thoughtful post. Please tell me you've actually practiced introspection.

Because quite frankly, you're simply regurgitating talking points I've heard for decades now, that even as a youth I found wanting, and that even being the dullard I am found it this easy to brush off.

If God needs this sort of tripe to win votes, he's in deep shit. Surely a perfectly intelligent god can construct an unrebuttable argument. This shit is child's play.

---

(June 4, 2015 at 5:55 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Yes, the Central and South American Catholics do have a lot of devotions that border on or cross over into superstition.

Yes, because believing in an immaterial creator who made both fallible men and the serpent who tempted them into mortal sin, only to sacrifice an avatar of himself -- born of a virgin woman! -- in order to absolve the human sin he knew he would create, while some holy spirit held everything together ...

... that's certainly not superstition.

Tell us again how your Bible is reasonable.

---

(June 4, 2015 at 7:36 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Finite crimes against an infinite God are not so finite. Punishment shows justice.

Demonstrate that infinite god, first.

It's sad, watching a smart person like you simply race to his knees in order to placate his programming. It's sad watching you abdicate your intelligence to the empty promise of a just-so story.

But hey, it's your life. Throw it away knobbing an imaginary cock all you want.

For clarity, I have reinserted the relevant quotes that are omitted with the automatic quoting system.

(June 4, 2015 at 8:04 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 7:42 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 6:31 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: ...

(June 4, 2015 at 6:05 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 5:55 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: ...

Hell is something to be taken very seriously, but not something with which parents should frighten small children.

...

You either tell children about hell or you don't.  If you do, it is frightening to them.  So are you saying that children should not be told about hell?

Sex frightens children, too. Especially the girls. THINK about what happens to them. Until they are ready for it, well, they aren't ready for it, okay? That's why parents normally EASE into the full truth over the course of several years as the kids are old enough to handle it.

Hell can be explained when it is appropriate to do so.

I should have expected you to evade the question, given how you have been ignoring it for so long.

Losty is right.  Sex is not frightening, or should not be. Children are curious about it, and often ask about it, except when their elders react badly to such questions.  So you are giving a false analogy.

If you think sex is comparable to hell for a woman, you must be doing something terribly wrong when you have sex.

LOL. 

Okay, kid. I'm sure you've gotten laid a time or two. You may have even been sober enough to remember it.

But I was not comparing sex to hell. I was saying that lots of things are scary to small children - hell and sex can both be scary at inappropriate ages. If some parents try to scare their kids into behaving with threats of hell or the boogey man or whatever, that's bad parenting. It's not bad theology.

Try to grasp the big concepts here, okay?
...

Actually, you did compare sex with hell.  Anyone can see that by looking at your quoted posts above (which have links to the originals, so everyone can see that they are accurate for what you posted).  You are the one who brought up sex as something frightening, like hell, to little girls.  And in fact, you have done it again in your response that is quoted above!  

Your total lack of honesty is not going to get many people to view you or your religion in a very good light.

Also, it is not a question of trying to scare children with hell.  Hell, if real, would be frightening.  So telling them about it at all, at any age, will be frightening, unless one tells them that it is a fairy tale or they are smart enough to not take it seriously.

You are either a moron for not understanding such an obvious fact, or you are just a liar, pretending not to know these things.  Either way, you seem to have an almost allergic aversion to the truth.

I suppose, though, that this is very trivial in comparison with the fact that you support an international pedophile ring.

(June 4, 2015 at 8:12 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(June 4, 2015 at 7:36 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Finite crimes against an infinite God are not so finite. Punishment shows justice.

Statements like this just go to show how evil Christianity really is. 

It has caused you to lose you moral compass and sacrifice your humanity, and believe you are moral.

Let me ask you this. According to you, if I died right now as an atheist, I would be punished for eternity for a thought crime.

Do you  think I deserve it?

This just shows how incomplete your understanding of God and Christianity really is, Simon.

You, and all your co-no-religionists need to hear this well:

It is not certain at all that you will be sent to hell forever just because you are an atheist; God in His infinite wisdom judges you based upon ALL of the facts of your individual life. He knows why you think as you do better than you do.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

Quote:846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Quote:Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Quote:Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Now, I can't gloss over the fact that you are NOT seeking God per se, but in that you may be trying to do (what is actually His will) known to you only by the dictates of your own conscience, you may be saved.

Notice the word, "may". The door is not closed, Simon. It's a tiny crack, but it's there. Personally, I wouldn't want to trust in this tiny loophole, but God is both infinitely just AND infinitely merciful. He made you and knows why you think as you do. You need to see the word "and" in there, too. The passage speaks of those who "seek God AND moved by grace, try...".

You may be more pleasing to God by your actions than I am by mine.

One other point, it is still uncertain whether you will actually die as an atheist even if you are living as one now. An act of contrition said with one's final breath has saved many a soul, I have no doubt.