This is kind of a spinoff of the WHY BE GOOD thread.

The question I have for atheists, isn't "why by good." I think it's simplistic and deeply flawed to think that the only reason to "be good" is to avoid Hell. And of course, I believe that anyone can be a good person regardless of beliefs.

The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

Religious or not, we all somehow know that certain things are intrinsically, universally immoral. Let's use murder as an obvious example. So if murder is wrong, where did this law come from? If this is a universal truth, where did this truth come from and who/what determined it to be what it is?

Or perhaps, by extension, how does god know what is good?

By godly fiat or because things are intrinsically good?

(June 15, 2015 at 7:05 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: Or perhaps, by extension, how does god know what is good?

By godly fiat or because things are intrinsically good?

Sounds like a hell of a dilemma. I'm surprised no one's thought of that one.

(June 15, 2015 at 7:14 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(June 15, 2015 at 7:05 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: Or perhaps, by extension, how does god know what is good?

By godly fiat or because things are intrinsically good?

Sounds like a hell of a dilemma.  I'm surprised no one's thought of that one.  

Indeed, there is nothing new under the Euthyphro.

(June 15, 2015 at 7:05 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote: Or perhaps, by extension, how does god know what is good?

By godly fiat or because things are intrinsically good?

Hello JHC.

Are you asking me why I believe God knows what is good? I believe things are intrinsically good because God made them that way. I believe God, being master of the universe, is the one who establishes goodness and morality. But the point of this thread was not for me to sit here and preach and tell you guys what I believe. My purpose for creating this thread was to hear *your* views and discuss them with you.

So, ya got anything?

I determine good by way of how it makes me feel.

If someone treats me kindly and respectfully, I am going to understand the good and reciprocate it. No god needed.

If someone does something that hurts me, obviously that is not good.

So you're in the godly fiat camp: things are good a cuz god sez so.

For which follows: things could just as easily have been otherwise. Hardly a rock-solid foundation then is it? "Just because I said so" seems a bit weak around the ethical gills.

And if your god establishes morality, for all time and all people, why was he a-ok with a Moses slaughtering little children in Numbers way back when? Doesn't sound like it was "established" at all.

(June 15, 2015 at 7:20 pm)Kitan Wrote: I determine good by way of how it makes me feel.  

If someone treats me kindly and respectfully, I am going to understand the good and reciprocate it.  No god needed.

If someone does something that hurts me, obviously that is not good.

Thank Kitan.

But don't you believe there are some things that ARE immoral regardless of how someone might "feel?"

For example, a jealous husband can feel that murdering his cheating wife is not immoral. But he is wrong. It IS immoral regardless of how he feels or what he thinks. The question is, where does the universal truth "murder is wrong" come from?

(June 15, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But don't you believe there are some things that ARE immoral regardless of how someone might "feel?"

For example, a jealous husband can feel that murdering his cheating wife is not immoral. But he is wrong. It IS immoral regardless of how he feels or what he thinks. The question is, where does the universal truth "murder is wrong" come from?

It would obviously be wrong via the wife's feelings at being murdered by the man whom she thought loved her above all else.  

Not to mention that killing of one's own clan in primitive times was considered wrong due to the fact that survival was of the up-most importance; thus morality was born.

(June 15, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: For example, a jealous husband can feel that murdering his cheating wife is not immoral. But he is wrong. It IS immoral regardless of how he feels or what he thinks. The question is, where does the universal truth "murder is wrong" come from?

You've yet to define "murder" and establish it is in fact a "universal truth", whatever that means.

Baby steps, my dear, baby steps. Most of us are operating with a heavy, devil-infested heart here.