(June 15, 2015 at 7:41 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: OP, if you want to discuss things that aren't in the "why be good?" thread, why are you just regurgitating things that can be found ad nauseum in it?

Just the nature of the Catholic position. Atheists are free largely to determine their own positions where if one wishes to label themselves "Catholic" then have to adopt veiws consistent with the Catholic church. You also must remember that while the Catholic church doesn't say so it definitely discourages skepticism to its positions.

To me, as a member of a social species, the metric of "good" is the pleasure I can give to another person. Seeing that joyous reaction and knowing that I gave it to them, that I was responsible for brightening someone's day even for a moment, is my reward. Conversely, actions that cause misery or harm to another person I deem "not good". These are general precepts and subject to situational revision, of course. I may have to lie to someone to spare them from a distasteful truth, or make sure a child takes medication that they need but which tastes bad to them.

(June 15, 2015 at 7:39 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It's almost like we instinctively know it's wrong. But where does it come from? And if someone was brought up being taught that it's ok to kill people, and they do so, they would still be doing something immoral. Because murder is immoral regardless of how the person feels about it.

You do realize you've said two mutually exclusive things, within two sentences, don't you? You began with "we instinctively know morality," but then a moment later you're asking us to envision a person who was brought up being taught that murder is morally okay, and thus believes that. So which is it? Do we instinctively know what's moral, or do we have to be taught? Your god clearly thinks it's the latter: despite claims of morality being written into our beings fundamentally, he still had to literally come down and tell us what's up. He had to step in: from his point of view, morality apparently has to be taught.

For me though, the source of morality is easy, though actually executing on it is less so: we live in a reality, that obeys consistent physical laws. We are biological organisms that, in turn, obey those laws as a function of our biology; what it means to be a living entity is an objective fact, what harms us, what benefits us, what allows us to survive, are all discoverable and consistent amongst everyone. Given this, there are certain fundamentals of being human that can be known to be universal: pain means bad things, pleasure means good things, we all know what injury is, what death is, and so on. I doubt anyone would argue that being mauled by a cougar is a good thing for us, at least in a physical sense.

We evolved a certain way, and what you see as an instinctive understanding of morality is actually just the execution of that evolution; we can tell without thinking too hard what events would be bad for us, and we have a natural aversion to those things, which are both good survival mechanisms, because you can identify danger and want to stay away from it. When you see these things happening to others your empathy kicks in, and you begin thinking transpositionally; what's bad for you is bad for them, and you'd prefer that it not happen to anyone else either because you can empathize, which is a good trait to have for a species that survives via cooperation and so on. I don't think I need to tell you that our position as the dominant life form on the planet is down largely to our willingness to cooperate and share knowledge.

That's really all you need, to think through a moral system. Basics lead to more complex moral tenets, as you encounter more scenarios and compare them to this common set of objective facts about being alive, in conjunction with your empathy. Yes, it's a big topic that's highly contextual, but it's not something that's impossible to reason out on your own. You don't need some god handing down moral laws, because by and large you already know what's good for you, and can extrapolate from there.

(June 15, 2015 at 7:31 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 15, 2015 at 7:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

First, this is exactly what I meant in your introduction thread when pleading to use the search function, since we had these kind of discussion ad nauseam.

Were we not asked, and according to the rules, not to 'necro-post'?  Most, if not all arguments and discussions on this board have been done "ad nauseam", but we have a new member interested in discussing with the active members rather than just reading unresponsive 'necro-posts'.

All one needs do is pass on the thread and find something new.

As to the OP, good is relative to cultures and society.  It is a part of our upbringing and depending on the influences one has been exposed to, will determine the moral values of that individual.  And of course, there are always the psychopaths that genetically cannot help themselves due to chemical imbalances or full-fledged genetic disorders.

Ask a headhunter if they are doing good or bad.

(June 15, 2015 at 7:54 pm)IATIA Wrote: Were we not asked, and according to the rules, not to 'necro-post'?  Most, if not all arguments and discussions on this board have been done "ad nauseam", but we have a new member interested in discussing with the active members rather than just reading unresponsive 'necro-posts'.

Don't forget that Randy barged in a few weeks ago and his regurgitation of the "why be good" thread was active this very day. Catholic lady even saw it, since she's referring to that.

Also, nothing in the rules prevents you from looking if that question hasn't already been answered extensively.

I think what is good has also been discussed rather endlessly in the Why be Good Thread as has how do we determine what is good.

I'll give you my rough answer.  First of all, though many philosophers have spilled tons of ink writing about various systems for determining what is good, I don't think that that's how people (even the philosophers) do it.  What is good is generally a gut feeling not a philosophical position.  The philosophy comes as a rationalization after the fact.

The gut feeling comes from empathy, and empathy is an inherited trait.  Sociopaths are born without it and they behave rather differently than the rest of us as a consequence.  The rest is cultural in the broad societal context and the smaller family context. Both secular and religious education are part of culture.  Because we are intelligent, we add a dash of reason to both empathy and culture.

Consequently, what is good depends on who you are, how you were raised, and where you are.  The Bible is often at odds with current morality, because we live in a rather different culture than the ancient Hebrews.

I think we scared her away xD

(June 15, 2015 at 7:28 pm)JesusHChrist Wrote:

(June 15, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: For example, a jealous husband can feel that murdering his cheating wife is not immoral. But he is wrong. It IS immoral regardless of how he feels or what he thinks. The question is, where does the universal truth "murder is wrong" come from?

You've yet to define "murder" and establish it is in fact a "universal truth", whatever that means.

Good point.

By murder I mean to kill an innocent person without their consent. Not in self defense, and not assisted suicide.

By "universal truth" I mean that it is definitely immoral to murder someone, regardless of what a particular person might think. Isis thinks it's ok and even good to kill infidels. But they are wrong. It is never moral to murder someone, and that is what it is regardless of what anyone may think. That's what I mean when I say it is a universal truth.

After a sufficient quantity of fire-breathing BBQing, the mean atheist dragons have torn the cowering Master to pieces.

(Dragons bellowing in the distance....)

(June 15, 2015 at 7:36 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote:

Quote:  The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

The question I have for catholics is, what is good?

Is teaching your kids that they will burn in hell if they don’t accept jesus good? Is stoning homosexuals to death good? Is slavery good?

Quote: So if murder is wrong, where did this law come from? If this is a universal truth, where did this truth come from and who/what determined it to be what it is?

Not the bible, that’s for sure.

Human beings determine what is good and bad, and it’s subjective, and changes over time.

To answer your questions:

1. We believe that God's laws establish moral/immoral, since we believe that He is the master of the universe.
2. No. None of those things are moral per Catholic teaching.

Well, it depends on which parts of the bible you are referring too. Christianity defines itself by the New Testament. The gospels, and the teachings of Christ. From that, you will most definitely see that the things you listed above are contrary to Christian teaching.

Like I told JHC. I am not hear to preach or to try to convince anyone to believe the same as I believe. I want to know and discuss your views.

Do you have any answers for me in regards to my original post?