(June 16, 2015 at 12:46 am)Rhythm Wrote: I understand that you believe that, I don't...and whether or not you believe that the divine morality changed - it is simply not up for discussion that those men believed very deeply in the moral commands of their god...and that the morality of that god as related to us -has changed-.....regardless of how mistaken they may have initially been.  I would not, if I were you, go down that road...because I would only ask you how you know that you are not -those men-.  

The more interesting consideration would be whether or not those men, deeply moved by what they had as much reason to believe were the desires of your god as you do now.....obedient to the words of that god as related to them...were "bad"?  Were they morally wrong?

@Huggy, good for you buddy, go wash yourself in the blood, ghoul. :washes hands:

(June 16, 2015 at 12:49 am)Rhythm Wrote: Don't tell that to your parish priests.

(June 16, 2015 at 1:27 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: All I can do is try to do my best with what I know. I'm not saying those folks were evil for believing what they did. They just weren't perfect and didn't have as much information as us "after Christ" people do.

Like I said, I don't believe any of the men in those stories actually existed. At least not in the way they were portrayed.

(June 16, 2015 at 12:50 am)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 12:39 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I meant "we" as in humanity. How do you all, as athiests, believe that us humans can determine morality?"

And Parker's Tan, I'm not uncomfortable at all discussing my views. In fact, I'd LOVE to talk to you guys about it if you genuinely wanted to know. But I just feel like the minute I posted that question to you guys, instead of hearing your answers, a lot of you just immediately jumped to asking me questions in return. And maybe I'm wrong, but they didn't feel like questions in the form of genuine curiosity and discussion, they felt like hostile questions. That's why I had to say a few times, "hey guys, just answer my post lol, don't be so distracted by me and what I believe!"

Keep in mind that Christians come in here constantly claiming to just have a couple of "simple questions". Bear in mind that this "how can you be, or know, good when you don't have faith" is  a tired trope that is too often used to condescend to us -- just as Randy has been doing for the last month.

Your refusal to answer cogent questions makes me wonder exactly how deep your thinking on the matter is at all.  You come in here claiming that objective morality exists, but you offer nothing to support that assertion, and you don't answer questions about the moral dimensions of the god who is after all the reason your Bible was written at all. I weigh the opinions I read here carefully based on what I see you post, but if you're not going to answer these questions, I have no metric for assessing the value of your insights, and it is only natural at that point that I should be more guarded.

(June 16, 2015 at 12:52 am)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 12:41 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Rhythm, like I said. Morality never changed. God never changed. The OT was simply not perfect and not complete. Jesus came partly to show us what God is really like, because we didn't have it perfectly right before that.

God's behavior certainly changed. What of that moral dimension?

(June 16, 2015 at 12:58 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 12:54 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Agree to disagree about morality being subjective.

And I have talked to Atheists who do not believe morality is subjective, so I guess it just depends on the person.

I'm afraid that sort of agreement simply isn't possible between us.  You can choose to make claims and then balk at further requests for demonstration, but this is not "agreeing to disagree"...this is the shit and run...also been done, many times.  Atheists don;t have to believe anything in particular about morality, nor are they required to know what subjective morality -actually is- anymore than you are.  If you're an example...then we might expect plenty of them to simply be mistaken.

Fair enough...

I did tell you that it had little to do with atheism at the very outset...did I not?  That's the amusing bit, in any case, there's no shortage of options -other- than the commands of a god or the lines of an objective morality.  You're likely to have leveraged one yourself.  I would certainly hope that you're capable of it, since so many of us clearly are.

Things "depending on the person" is a wonderful description both of subjective morality, and why it is subjective, you understand, yeah?

So, what do you think about those pious (but misinformed) worshippers of the past?  Were they immoral when they acted upon their heartfelt convictions regarding the desires and commands of their god?

(June 16, 2015 at 1:09 am)Kitan Wrote:

(June 16, 2015 at 1:04 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: What do you mean?

Precisely what I meant.

(June 16, 2015 at 1:16 am)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:I am sure a lot of Muslims are pleasing God. But people who kill others are not pleasing God, regardless of their religion.

Your certainties regarding god don't carry much weight with me..but here again, there are those who would disagree.  If a person truly believes that a god, who is good by definition, has ordered them to kill (and isn't that story familiar) or desires the death of some other group or person (yet another story which should be familiar to you)......are they being immoral when they act upon this?