(June 17, 2015 at 2:26 am)Kitan Wrote:

(June 17, 2015 at 2:21 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Otherwise I think you will continue to believe an entire institution is flawed based on a minority of individuals' bad actions, and I will continue to believe that it is not. And it is perfectly ok to agree to disagree.

Schools do not make the claim of the moral high ground as does the church.  If the church is what we are to look toward in matters of moral relativity, then clearly according to history we should be looking elsewhere.  

(June 17, 2015 at 2:22 am)robvalue Wrote: Public schools turn offenders over to the police, whereas priests tend to receive special treatment and lesser punishment via "internal justice".

'Moving molesters to parishions where there are more little children to be hurt'

(June 17, 2015 at 2:22 am)Stimbo Wrote:

(June 17, 2015 at 2:20 am)Neimenovic Wrote: So two husbands can't be in a loving, self giving commitment because.......?

"God" says it's icky.

'God' can kiss my fucking ass. I think his dogma is icky.

(June 17, 2015 at 2:11 am)Godschild Wrote: Why has everyone ignored what CL has said about school teachers, does this not bother you, for me it's horrific that our public schools are covering up such evil.

GC

Because "But Mommy, Jimmy did it too!" is an argument fit for a five-year-old, not an earthly representative of Christ. 

Why don't you try that out with your god in front of his throne on your alleged Judgement Day: "But Lord, John Gacy killed thirty-three, and I only killed two!" I wonder how that would be received.

(June 17, 2015 at 2:12 am)robvalue Wrote: You're doing a great job answering all these questions! I imagine it could be quite overwhelming having all us atheists running amok

I'm quite surprised by what you say about same gender sex. You started off with the same premise as me, that morality is based around treating others how you'd want to be treated. That covers almost all of morality in a single stroke, in a very general sense at least.

So where is the harm for consensual same sex adults having sex? How can we possibly know God didn't "intend" it, and why is that a factor all of a sudden? We don't need to think that way to easily see murder is wrong. We don't consider whether he intended it or not. Clearly he didn't put anything in place to stop it happening! So why are we using this new line of reasoning? Clearly the two gays involved are happy to have sex, and aren't breaking "the golden rule". So wherein lies the problem?

The fact that he supposedly set up evolution so as to create homosexuals (in other animals as well not just humans) makes homosexuals just as much a part of our society as anyone else. If he didn't intend it, but keeps allowing homosexuals to be created, and then expects them to either suppress their urges or pretend to be hetero, that is a cruel God in my opinion. If he can't stop them being made, then he's not much of a god. He's kind of bitching about his own "faults" there, not that I consider gays to be in any way faulty.

Also, you talk about child rearing. I don't agree that same sex parents are any worse, but even if we pretend they were, what's this has to do with sexual acts? Two men or two women can have sex all their lives without producing or hurting any children. It's an entirely seperate issue as to if they do have children through a surrogate/donor or adopt. Personally I think they should have the same right as everyone else regarding this, but again even if you don't, why also deny them sexual activity? Isn't that kicking them when they are down?

I realize it's just your opinion, I'm just pointing out what seems to me to be a huge contradiction and a massive leap to get from simple morality to suppressing gay sex. Either you personally find it immoral or you don't; if you do, then your reasons don't seem to add up, in my opinion. If it "upsets God" is that really a good enough reason? Doesn't that point to an all-too-human figure rather than a hugely powerful deity? Should we really worry about his feelings to that degree? If you don't personally think it's immoral but are forced to say it is because you are Catholic, then that's a big problem too.

Thank you for the kind words! Likewise, you all have been great. I am happy to be here with all of you!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me on this. I agree that brushing the surface, morality is basically about treating others the way you want to be treated. I do think, however, there are finer points and more complicated issues. I believe that having sex outside of marriage can actually be harmful to the people involved, and just overall, not so good for society.  I stated a couple reasons for this in my post 480, which I am sure you saw. This is not something so obvious, like hitting someone is wrong. This is one of the finer points where someone would have to really think it through in order to come to the conclusion of whether it is or is not moral.

I actually didn't mean to make any sort of bold statement on child rearing, I only brought up children because they are the ultimate result of and purpose of sexuality in general. So if I'm going to talk about sex, I think it's important to remember it as being THE act that creates life. Though it does serve other purposes, that is perhaps the more important one.

(June 16, 2015 at 4:11 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I am being 100% honest. If I believed all we were was just material made from dust particles and nothing else, I would still know that hurting others is wrong. I would still feel sorry for people. But I wouldn't be able to explain *why* it would be so important to treat others well. I would know it was, but I wouldn't know where that came from.

From where I sit, you still don't know where it came from. You've adopted a belief system, probably as a direct result of who your parents are. Based on those beliefs which you hold but don't know in a way you can defend to another, you assume you understand why it is important to treat others well. But what really does that amount to aside from a smug, probably undeserved assurance. Uncertainty is our actual circumstance.

(June 17, 2015 at 2:21 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Abuse is not a "Catholic thing" (as it seems like it is being portrayed here). It is something that can and does happen amongst all groups.

And then what moral high ground does the Catholic Church hold, that it should lecture anyone else how to behave?

None. Zero, zilch, nada. You can pretend your faith gives you morality, but your own moral leaders show themselves to be corrupt ... and you're following them.

Matt 7:18.

(June 17, 2015 at 2:22 am)robvalue Wrote: Public schools turn offenders over to the police, whereas priests tend to receive special treatment and lesser punishment via "internal justice".

It's like when a politician got found out doing hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of fraud. Anyone else would go to jail. This guy was "forced to pay it back!"

Unfortunately schools and universaties alike have done far more cover ups of abuse than the Catholic Church. We just don't hear about it all the time because it's not as scandalous as when it is done by priests. And yes, politicians as well. It's a horrible thing.

CL: Thanks Sure, your post talks about extra marital sex. But it sounds like you oppose gay marriage and gay sex. I can't understand why.

Remember that marriage is now entirely secular, any religious aspect is entirely optional. I understand keeping religious beliefs when believers get married, but why would you want to deny non Christian gays the right to get married and then have sex? I'm not getting it.

I get the feeling you wouldn't actually deny it, that you wouldn't actively oppose the passing of laws to allow gay marriage.

I'll leave the issue now, I've had my say

Sex does not have a purpose. It has a consequence.