(June 21, 2015 at 12:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 21, 2015 at 12:13 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: He is god right? The same guy from the old testament? The same old testament that not only endorses slavery but gives specific instruction on it?

I have addressed this several times. But I can see how you may have missed it.

Yes, He was the same God. But we have to remember that the bible was not written by the hand of God. It was written by man. And though these men were all inspired by God, they are still men and not God. I good way to think of it is that the bible represents God, but does so through the filter of man.

Once Jesus (who is God) came we were able to gain a better understanding of God. And He debunked a number of things from the OT, namely the stoning of adulterers and the law "an eye for an eye" which He addressed specifically.

Hope that helps.

(June 21, 2015 at 12:14 pm)Metis Wrote:

(June 21, 2015 at 12:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Like I said, though He didn't specifically address slavery, He told us "love your enemy," and "love your neighbor as yourself." and "treat others how you want them to treat you."

He probably didn't specifically address rape either, as well as other specific things. But like slavery, I think that's a given... considering his commandment to love.

I don't think any honest person could read the entire life of Jesus and come out of it with the take way that He condones enslaving people.

That seems a very odd thing for a Catholic to say Catholic_Lady, whenever I have visited Catholic Forums they usually deny that slavery itself is immoral (if you go to more conservative ones or even SSPX they usually go further and say feudalism/serfdom/absolute monarchy are the only Godly Catholic forms of governance.

I don't see how the Catholic Church can say slavery is immoral, when the Synod of Gangra said anyone who called for the abolition of it was Anathema, several popes have owned slaves (Alexander VI actually granted permission to the Spanish to enslave the inhabitants of South America!) and in more recent times the Pope actually sided with the US confederacy, stating that anyone who thought slavery was immoral was against God. (If you look into the campaign against slavery you'll actually find it was led by protestants and one of it's greatest enemies was no other than the Catholic Church. Look at St Martin de Pores, who was basically made a saint for being a submissive slave and respectful to whitey!)

By all means I agree slavery is immoral, but for most of it's history (until the 1970's to be more precise) Catholicism has held that slavery is instituted by God and that some people are just better than others.

(June 21, 2015 at 12:24 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote:

(June 21, 2015 at 11:56 am)Randy Carson Wrote: rexbeccarox has. Twice.

And let's not kid one another: CL's avatar has got more than a few of the guys here dialing the aggression in their responses to her way, way down.

Yes, I have... because she broke two different rules, which she has acknowledged that she understands, and which she hasn't done again.  Unlike you, who continues to flout the rules after being told countless times.  No one else has as much trouble with the them as you do.  It's amazing.  We aren't here to follow your rules, Randy.

Also, I can't speak for other people, but I've been much more civil to C_L in general because she hasn't abused the forum the way you do.  I'm bisexual, but I'm not really attracted to her (C_L, you're beautiful; just not my type), and her avatar does nothing for me.  I treat her better than you because she treats the forum better than you do; also, she doesn't deliberately flout the rules to see what she can get away with, thus making staff's job harder.

Get over yourself.

(June 21, 2015 at 12:58 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(June 21, 2015 at 12:13 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: He is god right? The same guy from the old testament? The same old testament that not only endorses slavery but gives specific instruction on it?

I have addressed this several times. But I can see how you may have missed it.

Yes, He was the same God. But we have to remember that the bible was not written by the hand of God. It was written by man. And though these men were all inspired by God, they are still men and not God. I good way to think of it is that the bible represents God, but does so through the filter of man. It is not completely perfect. It is not infallible. It was not directly written by God.

Once Jesus (who is God) came we were able to gain a better understanding of God. And He debunked a number of things from the OT, namely the stoning of adulterers and the law "an eye for an eye" which He addressed specifically.

Hope that helps.

(June 21, 2015 at 12:33 pm)Nope Wrote:

(June 21, 2015 at 12:23 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Fair enough, Jenny.

But this does not undermine my premise that God was training a people over the course of a long period of time.

If you want a curved piece of furniture, you have to work with the wood very slowly. Are people much different? See the Father's handiwork?

I'm confused, what does training people over a very long period of years have to do with the verses Jenny used? So, a Hebrew virgin that might be very young, is sold to a man by the person she probably trusted most, her dad. Her dad knows she will be raped and used for sex and yet he sells her anyway. Remember, bronze aged people were humans just like we are. The girl would have felt the betrayal and pain that any person would feel in such a situation. Her life meant nothing apparently to this god because he was using her suffering was being used to train some future group. Is that what you are saying, Randy?

(June 21, 2015 at 12:32 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(June 21, 2015 at 12:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: All those things are part of our Christian beliefs.

With that being said, these questions are basically the same as another question that has been asked here already in several different ways, "why do you believe what you believe?"

There is no simple answer, but Randy did a great job of addressing it in a way that I myself could never be eloquent enough to put into words. It's in this post, and others. If I get the chance I will look for one of them and repost it here for you.

---

Close, but no. :-)

Morality does not depend on society in the first place. That is why I believe morality is unchanging, and that is why I believe certain things are wrong even if our society, or others, consider them good.

I believe morality comes from God.

Right they are part of your Christian belief, you believe your morals come from god. My question was how do you know the morals your getting from god are good, it is impossible to judge the morality of god when you have no morality of your own.

(June 21, 2015 at 12:19 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Okay. I don't agree with everything William Lane Craig or Gary Habermas think, either. But that doesn't mean that I couldn't learn something from them...OR from Ehrman, et al.