(June 24, 2015 at 9:56 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: I... I just...

Randy, I stand by what I've said: your God condones rape.  You have shown me absolutely nothing that will change my mind, and in fact, your apologetics make it even worse.

Disgusting.

Interestingly it's actually rather simple to create a case from the NT to suggest the Christian God is against rape, the concept of successive override (NT overrules OT) isn't alien to Christians after all.

The choice to retain focus upon the OT instead of diverting it to later Pauline prohibitions as the director of morality was a poor one. Although that itself is hardly pro-woman with all the commands to veil and not teach men it's a damn sight better than the OT.

(June 24, 2015 at 10:03 pm)Metis Wrote:

(June 24, 2015 at 9:56 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: I... I just...

Randy, I stand by what I've said: your God condones rape.  You have shown me absolutely nothing that will change my mind, and in fact, your apologetics make it even worse.

Disgusting.

Interestingly it's actually rather simple to create a case from the NT to suggest the Christian God is against rape, the concept of successive override (NT overrules OT) isn't alien to Christians after all.

The choice to retain focus upon the OT instead of diverting it to later Pauline prohibitions as the director of morality was a poor one. Although that itself is hardly pro-woman with all the commands to veil and not teach men it's a damn sight better than the OT.

I'd totally agree with you if it weren't the same god.

(June 24, 2015 at 7:43 am)Metis Wrote: Some years ago, I can't say I even remember it that well. I recall Dalin expounds upon some of the rescue plans of Mother Pascalina and a few clergymen but he does tend to skirt around a few more awkward facts such as when Pius XII was Papal Nuncio in Berlin he was observed by no other than Pascalina herself giving funds to an anti-communist/anti-semitic group ran by no other than...*drumroll* Adolf Hitler. It also ignores the total inaction by the European Catholic church on an official level, when Jews were being forced to wear the yellow star the church did speak out, but only for Catholic Jews who were being made to wear it too, the rest could all go to hell quite literally.

You may recall that when the bishops did speak out against Nazism in the earliest days of the war, Hitler ordered massive bombing in retaliation, and many innocent civilians died. Consequently, the Church hierarchy realized that its opposition to the Germans would have to be conducted underground. Catholic monasteries and churches all over Europe were used for hiding the Jews and as part of an underground railroad that moved people out of harm's way. If the Pope and the Bishops had confronted Hitler from their pulpits, these havens would have been destroyed.

Quote:As for my theology why do I have to be a Catholic to be able to understand the Catholic Church? Have I made any mistakes in recounting it's history or doctrine?

That's not what I asked. You have seen Catholicism from the three vantage points of atheism, Protestantism (you are not Protestant) and Orthodoxy (you are not Orthodox). Consequently, you have not studied Catholicism from the Catholic point of view...with an appreciation of Catholic sprituality, etc.

Only as an outsider in three admittedly hostile environments.

I can't help but wonder what your impression of Catholicism might be if you earned a degree from a solid Catholic university. Just sayin'.

Quote:As for what Catholicism has gotten right? You may need to be more specific. Are we talking about doctrine? It's impact upon the world? On a doctrinal level I obviously think it's all based upon a false premise. That doesn't mean from time to time it doesn't produce desirable effects like social order or encourage support of other human beings. It also gives a great deal of comfort to some of the most poor and destitute individuals in the world.

If you tell me which area I can be more specific, I'm afraid I don't quite know what you mean for your last point

Here I was thinking of Catholic theology. Perhaps as an atheist, you haven't actually paid much attention to that. You seem more focused on the history and sociological aspects of the Church...

rexbeccarox

Metis

Interestingly it's actually rather simple to create a case from the NT to suggest the Christian God is against rape, the concept of successive override (NT overrules OT) isn't alien to Christians after all.

The choice to retain focus upon the OT instead of diverting it to later Pauline prohibitions as the director of morality was a poor one. Although that itself is hardly pro-woman with all the commands to veil and not teach men it's a damn sight better than the OT.


I'd totally agree with you if it weren't the same god.


Oh some Christians have gotten around that, the coming of Jesus supposedly "humanized" (there's a greek word for this I don't know how to translate, humanized is the best I can do) the trinity and gave it a level of empathy and mercy it never previously practiced. God the Father (OT God) is pure wrath, whereas Jesus (NT God) is compassion and is the new "main face". Some like to fluff it up a bit more with the Virgin Mary being a loving mother holding back the divine wrath of God the Father.

It's really not hard for most of them to get around, Catholics have nailed themselves in a bit more though.

(June 24, 2015 at 9:50 pm)Metis Wrote:

(June 24, 2015 at 9:40 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Deuteronomy 22:25-27
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

Men died for rape according to the Law of God.

God does not condone rape.

Tell her the rest of that passage Randy, if you're going to quote a Deuteronical law quote all of it.


Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV)
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

In this case they're more bothered about her being betrothed, not raped. It's perceived as a slur upon another male, theft from him if you like. Nothing to do with the dignity of the woman.

I've already quoted huge chunks of Dt. 22. And since she found chapter 21, I presume she can read chapter 22 for herself. She won't...because....but she could.

Metis- I appreciate your comments about the NT, but I own the OT, too. Becca's insistence on viewing God as a moral monster in the OT sets the stage that I must act upon.

Consequently, I continue to point out that while the treatment of women captured in war or raped seems repugnant to us today, the Law of God was nothing short of revolutionary in its day and a huge improvement over the other nations with whom God did not covenant Himself.

God does not condone rape.

(June 24, 2015 at 10:12 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 24, 2015 at 9:50 pm)Metis Wrote: Tell her the rest of that passage Randy, if you're going to quote a Deuteronical law quote all of it.


Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV)
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

In this case they're more bothered about her being betrothed, not raped. It's perceived as a slur upon another male, theft from him if you like. Nothing to do with the dignity of the woman.

I've already quoted huge chunks of Dt. 22. And since she found chapter 21, I presume she can read chapter 22 for herself. She won't...because....but she could.

Excuse me, but did you miss the fact that I have read the Bible many times and that I know exactly what it says?

Fuck.

You.

Quote:Metis- I appreciate your comments about the NT, but I own the OT, too. Becca's insistence on viewing God as a moral monster in the OT sets the stage that I must act upon.

My insistence? You're the one proving it. I don't have to do shit.

Quote:Consequently, I continue to point out that while the treatment of women captured in war or raped seems repugnant to us today, the Law of God was nothing short of revolutionary in its day and a huge improvement over the other nations with whom God did not covenant Himself.

Yep. You continue to point it out... and you continue to fail.

Quote:God does not condone rape.

Still waiting for a Bible verse in which there is any justice for rape; haven't seen one yet.

(June 24, 2015 at 10:07 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: You may recall that when the bishops did speak out against Nazism in the earliest days of the war, Hitler ordered massive bombing in retaliation, and many innocent civilians died. Consequently, the Church hierarchy realized that its opposition to the Germans would have to be conducted underground. Catholic monasteries and churches all over Europe were used for hiding the Jews and as part of an underground railroad that moved people out of harm's way. If the Pope and the Bishops had confronted Hitler from their pulpits, these havens would have been destroyed.

At the time prior to the war one third of the German people were Catholic and prior to its forced dissolution by the Vatican the Catholic Center Party was by far the single most powerful party in Germany (Pius XII ordered Monsignor Kass, the then leader to dissolve it). The Nazi party could never have come to power without the devolution of the Catholic Center Party. That is historical fact.

Also, whatever happened to not standing aside quietly when sin takes place? I had my boyfreinds bitch of a sister spraypainting "faggot" on the front of my car because her Catholic faith "requires" her to "oppose evil and sin wherever it takes root". That's why the Catholic Church is screaming like a hysterical tart holding exorcism masses in the US and Mexico trying to cast out "the gay demons" and the "sins of the death culture".

This is what is called hypocrisy. If morality is not relative, you must oppose evil as and when it appears as Newman so eloquently phrased in the Apologia.

Quote:That's not what I asked. You have seen Catholicism from the three vantage points of atheism, Protestantism (you are not Protestant) and Orthodoxy (you are not Orthodox). Consequently, you have not studied Catholicism from the Catholic point of view...with an appreciation of Catholic sprituality, etc.

Only as an outsider in three admittedly hostile environments.

I can't help but wonder what your impression of Catholicism might be if you earned a degree from a solid Catholic university. Just sayin'.

I actually did apply to try and study for a masters at a Catholic university, but as "an agent of satan" (and I'm quoting one of their admission officers) I'm apparently not allowed as my presence in their "sacred halls" would be "grave scandal and temptation". The Orthodox thankfully were rather more accepting, they dislike my worldview but they were willing to allow me to learn more about theirs. I'm not bitter, I actually understand some of their reasons for doing so and the university I later got into was actually far better in standing. Although why they thought I would bring "temptation" I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps they were worried I might tempt one of their candidates for the priesthood for a quickie in the confessional? I've not the least idea

I take in all the evidence I have access to Randy, and while I have no qualifications in specifically Catholic theology I have done much research into many aspects of it, such as the activity of the SSPX, the FSPX and the sex abuse cases in Newfoundland and Ireland. I'm always open to new information, but I am not this ignoramous basing myself on half-knowings and patchy knowledge as you make out. If anything I've demonstrated my knowledge of Cathoic History and Theology exceeds your own.

Quote:Here I was thinking of Catholic theology. Perhaps as an atheist, you haven't actually paid much attention to that. You seem more focused on the history and sociological aspects of the Church...

Of course I'm going to, the actions of the church are supposedly dictated by and directed via its devotion to it's spiritual mission. By their fruits ye shall know them.

As for Catholic theology....I will need to consider this. I mentioned on another thread I found replacing vainglory with caritas in Late Roman society was a very valuable contribution and shift in culture, although one could contribute that to the Orthodox too but I shall refrain. I will try to reflect and consider anything else.

(June 24, 2015 at 10:18 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Still waiting for a Bible verse in which there is any justice for rape; haven't seen one yet.

You won't see one because Randy actually thinks the whole "marry the rapist" thing is justice.

(June 24, 2015 at 10:18 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Still waiting for a Bible verse in which there is any justice for rape; haven't seen one yet.

Deuteronomy 22:25-27
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.


That's the death penalty for rape, becca. Is that "any justice"?

(June 24, 2015 at 10:28 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(June 24, 2015 at 10:18 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: Still waiting for a Bible verse in which there is any justice for rape; haven't seen one yet.

Deuteronomy 22:25-27
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.


That's the death penalty for rape, becca. Is that "any justice"?

Nope, because that only applies to a woman betrothed.